Beth Stallwood     00:00:00 > 00:01:55
Welcome to the WorkJoy Jam podcast. I'm your host, Beth Stallwood, and today my guest is the wonderful Eleanor Tweddell. Eleanor and I talk all about redundancy and change and that enforced change side of things and as Eleanor's book says, how losing your job can be the best thing that ever happened to you. How we can take these opportunities, whether enforced by other people, or those moments where we feel like a bit icky or sticky, maybe where we've fallen out of love with our job, we just have that knowing it's maybe not the right thing for us, or we need to do something to reconnect - how we can make that happen and how we can take real ownership, take responsibility and make the best of these situations by embracing the messiness, the ick, the stick the oh, I don't know what I want to do and really reconnecting with ourselves, understanding ourselves and working through the things that are going to make us more joyful. I hope you enjoy this episode.

Welcome to the WorkJoy Jam podcast. Today I'm delighted to be joined by Eleanor Tweddell and I can't wait to get into this conversation, but rather than me introduce you, let me hand you over. Eleanor, could you tell us a bit about you, who you are, what you do, and maybe a little bit of your career story and how you got to where you are today?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:01:55 - 00:02:08
Thank you. Beth? Oh, that question. Why do we find it so hard to answer that question? Like, who am I? Suddenly makes me go all kind of like, I don't know. Who am I?

Beth Stallwood 00:02:09 - 00:02:12
And I'm so mean because I ask it of everybody who comes on the podcast.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:02:12 - 00:03:47
Does everyone go, oh my God, I don't know? This has made me feel all philosophical and like I need to go and sit in a dark room and really think about who I am and maybe improve it. Anyway, let's explore how to answer that question. So right now, who am I? I'm an author. at Penguin and I wrote the book ‘Why losing your job could be the best thing that ever happened to you’ and I guess I now would describe myself as a writer. I write a lot, but I also am a consultant in my specialist subject of culture change. I guess that's what I write about as well. I also founded Another Door a couple of years ago, which I'll explain in a minute, and the extension to that, which is recommended a platform to help people get their expertise out there into the world. That came about because Another Door was all about helping people change career, make redundancy a good thing. I went and asked people, how are they getting on after they'd been through our programs and so many people had sort of given up, gone back to work, or got a side hustle instead and I just felt I wasn't doing enough to help people get their message out there, connect with people who had work, help them create really exciting offers for corporates or speaking gigs. So that's what Recommended is all about. So I guess that's where I spend most of my time at the moment but I'm a person with many hats on. That's not exactly a really short stump speech, is it?

Beth Stallwood 00:03:48 - 00:04:24
It was lovely, it was real and it was you and as a person who also wears many hats and has lots of different things to do, that question is one that I find really hard. It's like, which bit of this do you want me to do? It's great to hear all these different things and I personally love the book ‘Why losing your job could be the best thing that ever happened to you’. I think it's a really interesting place to come from because so often things like organisational change and redundancy is scary. It is scary, I'll accept that. But can be so liberating and brilliant and amazing. Tell us a little bit about the journey that you went on to get to the point where you wrote that book, if you don't mind.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:04:25 - 00:04:44
I was a corporate for 23 years. Really lucky. Worked in some amazing brands. So my very first job was selling beer so you can imagine coming out of university and my first job was selling beer.

Beth Stallwood 00:04:44 - 00:04:45
Dream job.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:04:45 - 00:09:22
I mean, what was going on there? I don't know. I don't know how I left the job, actually. Why am I still not doing it? But I loved it, absolutely loved selling. And I always say to people, if you get stuck with what to do after leaving school or university, go into a sales job because it gives you everything you need for anything else you will ever do. There's just no other kind of vocation that does that. Selling is just everything - you learn about confidence, about just so much. So, I sold beer, which is harder than you think. People always say, well, how difficult is it to sell beer? Hard, actually especially in those days. I think I got the men's club and I wasn't allowed in. So try selling to a men's club where you're not allowed in. That was the era we're talking. But anyway, I did that, I left and then I sold the internet for a while. Yes, the actual internet. So I phoned up corporate companies and said, there's this new thing, Pipex it's on a CD, it's going to change the world, you need it in your business and they all said, absolutely not, we're not having that new fangled stuff here, go away. So I sold the Internet for a while, which again is an unbelievable thing to admit exactly how old I am, I don't know. But yeah, sold the internet and then stopped selling the Internet and then Costa Coffee came along and I joined Costa when it had three stores, it had just been bought by Whitbread and they had this idea they were going to grow it and we all sat in a roastery in Lambeth, kind of Willy Wonka chocolate factory at the start. If you imagine Willy Wonka's chocolate factory when it was just an idea, they were wondering, where can we take this? That's kind of how Costa was in this roastery in Lambeth. And five of us, which grew to about 20 of us, grew this brand and played with it and grew it. So that was my first taste of probably entrepreneur thinking, although I probably didn't realise that, but that's what we were doing. Absolutely loved it, but then went off traveling for a while, as you do in your twentys, and went backpacking and came back and then properly went into corporate life. I went into corporate communications for Whitbread, for RAC, for Virgin Atlantic, for Vodafone and then that got me to Head of Comms for Vodafone. I went on maternity leave. I came back as leading the graduate program, an apprentice program, which I absolutely loved. But a new HR director came along and took us all out. There's a big layer of us at sort of management level, and he took us all out so I was made redundant. So that's where this book came from, because I was at a moment in time in my career where I was loving it. I actually loved that job, but also in my personal life, we were trying for another baby. I was like 42 then, so trying for another baby at that stage kind of needed the corporate backing, which Vodafone had at the time. I don't know what they're like now, but they were brilliant at that at the time. And so for me to be made redundant at that moment in time was really difficult, and it hurt. It was very personal as well, because the role kind of did exist, obviously, legal ramifications all around it, but it existed, so it was personal, and so I was made redundant from a job and the irony is, my book starts with redundancy isn't personal, but for me it was because the role was still there, and they were just pretending, and they just didn't want me to do it. So it was kind of like, wow, this is so personal, this is raw. What do I do now? We were wanting another baby, but I couldn't do that with going for interviews for the next job. So it was really sticky icky time, and I started writing a blog about, what do you do if you don't want to do what you're doing? I kept turning up to interviews, and people asked that question, why would you like this job? And I heard myself thinking, I don't want this job. You're boring the shit out of me. But obviously you don't say that in the interview because that wouldn't probably go down well.

Beth Stallwood 00:09:23 - 00:09:27
Probably would be a career limiting move, saying that out loud in an interview.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:09:27 - 00:10:50
I think it wouldn't get you far. Although I've never tried it. Maybe I should try it. Maybe people would be like, oh, interesting. Maybe that's…who knows? But yeah, it's advisable not to say that, but I thought it. And I remember driving home from an interview which ticked all the boxes. It was amazing. Even the guy that was interviewing, I really liked him, what he had to say. It was a promotion, it had more to offer, and it was all such good vibes. And I was down to the last two, and I just thought, oh, my God, I don't want it. Why don't I want this? This is so weird. So in the end, I just started having random thoughts, which is not great when you got, like I think my daughter was one by then. And I just started to have these thoughts - What if I started my own business? What if I did something completely different? I found myself in a sort of boot camp at the Do Lectures in Wales. That was an interesting conversation with my husband. What are you doing? Oh, I'm going for three days to this Cowshed thing in Wales to think about myself? What are you doing? I don't know. Just go with me. Just look after the baby. Fine. So, yeah, I did that. Some sort of weird breakdown. But anyway, that's where it all started. Just started to think, what if I don't do what I do already? So that was the blog, Another Door, and that's where the book came from.

Beth Stallwood 00:10:52 - 00:11:55
It's such a story I'm sure will resonate with a lot of people around, kind of living the corporate life, seemingly being quite great in your career, enjoying it, etc. And then something comes along and hits you. And one of the things I always think about redundancy, and I wrote about this in my book, is that even if it's not personal, and obviously in your case, there was some personal bits within it, it all feels personal, whether it's personal or not, because it's you and you're a person. You're a human being in that job. And it feels horrible. It feels awful. So that situation where people are there, you're having this thing that comes along. It kind of sideswipes you often with a, oh what do I do? Life is happening around you. You had a kid, you wanted another one. That kind of life. It's really hard when you get that to be able to know what to do and where to go. And it sounds like you thought, okay, let's go and get this other job. And then you got this, sounds like, a little bit of an inner knowing that that isn't the thing that you should be doing, that there's something else you could do.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:11:56 - 00:13:07
Yeah, definitely but you're right in saying, I think it is a bit messy and I think that's okay. So I think a lot of people I talk to maybe in the shock part of losing the job, and shock comes to us in different ways. We all deal with shock in different ways, but it is a bit messy. We have these kind of panic thoughts that money is a driver. Like, oh, my God, how am I going to pay bills? What's the kind of basics that I absolutely need to solve right now? But then there's another almost voice talking to us saying, but could we do things differently now? I don't want to be treated like this again. I don't want to feel like this again. Maybe there's a different way. Maybe this is an opportunity. And because it's a bit messy I think that's why the blog and the book kind of unfolded, because I don't think it's as simple as just saying, oh lose your job, think of what you really want to do and go and do it. You've got to get messy and be prepared to get messy.

Beth Stallwood 00:13:07 - 00:13:28
And work through. You said it felt icky. You've got to work through the ick. You got to work through the sticky bit. You've got to work through all of the emotional stuff that comes up there and things like, how am I going to pay the bills? What does this mean for me? And almost, I think we hold a lot of our identity in the work that we do, and you almost have to reinvent yourself as well.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:13:28 - 00:15:32
Oh, that's huge and it depends what you've been doing, I guess, and how ingrained you are or what came with the job. But I've always done jobs that I can send emails to people and they respond. So as Head of Comms at Virgin Atlantic, I would always get a response for anything and for Vodafone. I've always had people go, oh, yeah, we'll help you. Oh, yeah, I'll jump on a call. Oh, yeah, I'll do this. And so I become that and you're know, when people say, oh, what do you do? Oh, I work for Virgin Atlantic and usually they do follow up by going, oh, yes, cabin crew. Which you have to go, if only. Do I look like I'm very flattered you think I'm cabin crew? But that’s how you answer those questions. It's who you say you are. So you do have to unravel it because there's that weird moment when you've been made redundant and then someone says, what do you do? And you go, I'm between jobs, I don't know. I'm a bit of a loser because they just fired me. I don't know, I'm feeling sorry for it. Like, what do you say? I'm unemployed. So that, again, is something that I sort of blogged about and wrote about. Like, if I have a problem now, I write about it. That's how I sort of solve things going on. I write rubbish, I just ramble and go, Right, what's going on? And sometimes it gives me an answer and sometimes it gives me further questions, but that was one of them, how do I answer this? I thought, okay, well, I'm just going to make something up. So I said, oh, I'm a communications consultant, I've just started so if you've got anybody who, you know, needs a comms person, here I am. And I just started saying that. I wasn't particularly set up for it, I didn't have a website, I didn't have anything that would tell you that's what I am. I just started answering that question in that way and that's how it sort of started for me.

Beth Stallwood 00:15:32 - 00:15:52
Isn't that interesting as well? Allowing it to evolve around you rather than having all the answers in one go. You don't have to have it all set up, you don't have to have a website, you don't have to have this, but to start talking about yourself in a different way or about what you do in a different way and see where those connections might lead you to.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:15:52 - 00:17:33
Make it really easy for yourself. Communication consultant - what even is that? I don't know. So let's just say it and let's see what people say when I say it. And I guess things were kind of not complicated at that point for me, but my husband's in the military, so we move around a lot as well. We move every two years, so we'd just moved as well. We were now in Bristol and so trying to find a new network of people, that's the first thing everyone asks. Why are we obsessed in that? I don't know. Why do we always want to know what people do? Like meet someone in the supermarket. Oh, so what do you do? So interesting, isn't it? I don't meet people in the supermarket. I don't know why that's weird. I don't go up to people in the supermarket. Hi, what do you do? I mean, maybe I should, that would be interesting, but it is, it's what we ask people. So that is mostly why I sort of started saying that and just seeing where that opportunity would take me. And I got a bit of work for it and it was interesting because most people think that's external. So I did get a bit of marketing and a bit of PR stuff from it, but then I rebelled completely and went completely mad at one point and got a market stall just outside Bristol, started selling beach towels. This is what I mean, get messy, like, just go with it. I just got fed up with this corporate life and thought, okay, I'm doing this corporate stuff, but I don't want to and I set up a market store with beach towels, I don't know what happened there.

Beth Stallwood 00:17:33 - 00:17:35
How long did you do that for?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:17:36 - 00:17:55
About a year, in fact. Well, we ran the online store for three years because I ran it with somebody else eventually and we went to Christmas fairs and things like that and did quite well, but it was never going to earn us massive salaries. Of course it wasn't, but when COVID came, that was the end really.

Beth Stallwood 00:17:55 - 00:17:56
Yeah.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:17:57 - 00:18:22
The only chance I ever had of making any money was in these sort of fairs, summer fairs or Christmas fairs and obviously that all stopped so I just shut it down. So, yeah, now I've got a room full of beach towels, which kind of is every day I open the door and think, wow, reminder of failure, brilliant. But then hang on a minute, I've reframed every time I open the door. I go, well, you know, tried, did something interesting.

Beth Stallwood 00:18:22 - 00:18:26
Learn a few skills.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:18:26 - 00:18:30
Very weird moment in time, don't know what was happening there, but cool.

Beth Stallwood 00:18:33 - 00:20:30
It's such an interesting thing, isn't it, about you can try some stuff, you can experiment, you can give things a go, it doesn't have to be a forever decision. And I do think that sometimes when I've been through this situation as well, so I was under redundancy twice within the first five years of my career after I came out of university. So I feel like I got my experience in really early and became a bit resilient to it. The first time my job was taken out and there were other opportunities, so I took a different opportunity which actually gave me a promotion. I had to go for a promotion and that was great so it was a good outcome. The second time was really funny because I'd done this big project and made loads of recommendations that basically meant my job was gone and I was like, oh, I have created my own destiny in this particular situation. And it was really interesting because I had the opportunity again to go for a promotion. But you know, when you talk about that feeling of like, I don't think I really want this job, I was there, and I was kind of debating between I could go for getting a promotion job in the organisation I quite liked and we had a really good culture and it was a really great place to work, but the job itself was more of a kind of operational job, an operational management job. And I was like, I don't think I want to be doing that. I'm not sure that's the right thing to do. So you're given sometimes these different options and different paths and I've decided that my career is full so far of like, don't follow the yellow brick road. Don't always make the other decision and see where you can go and what you can do. And I then went from there into a totally different industry and learned loads of stuff. And I feel like if I'd have taken the most obvious route, which is just do the safest thing, which would be take another job within this organisation, that my career and where I've got to would look really different from where it is now.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:20:31 - 00:20:39
Yeah, I love that concept of, like, do the other thing. Yeah, it's a bit of a sliding door thing, isn't it?

Beth Stallwood 00:20:39 - 00:21:32
Totally sliding door moment and I remember the minute I went down to the HR team and said, right, I'm taking redundancy. And they were like, what? But we had another job sorted for you. And I was like, yeah, I don't want it, I want to go on. And they were kind of like, are you mad? Because it was kind of a job for life type place. You got in there and you could work your way through and it was great. And there were lots of lovely things about working there. I have friends who still work there now, 20 years later, but the really interesting one for me is having that, slightly mad, slightly rebelliousness, slightly not very risk averse, I don't know what it was at the time, but I was like, no, I'm going to go and see something else and do something different. But that was my personal redundancy experience, which is interesting.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:21:32 - 00:22:28
Yeah, I love that. I think the key thing is, it is a moment to get to know yourself, isn't it? You were getting to know yourself in a different way at that point. And as you've just said, not everybody can do that one. Maybe they just haven't got to know themselves and they're keeping safe and they want to, because actually, work is an enabler for something else, rather than work being their driver, which is totally cool. But it's a total moment of getting to know that and owning it. And I think that's what I can hear in what you've just described there, which I love, you've got to know yourself and go, well, do you know what? Myself wants to do this and I'm backing myself to find something. And I think we can all have those moments. It might just come at different stages, depending on how much work you've done to help you get to that place, if that makes sense.

Beth Stallwood 00:22:28 - 00:23:49
Definitely. And I think redundancy is one of those ones that kind of forces you to do it. It forces you to have those kind of deeper conversations with yourself and understanding and think about it. But there are other times when you just have that feeling or you know, that work feels a bit icky or sticky or you don't find work joy, you don't find the joy in it that you used to. Those are all moments in time where you kind of get, I might need to think about this. I might need to change some stuff. I might need to take a different route, or I might need to actually really work, work on who I am outside of work. I might need to spend some quality time thinking about that kind of stuff. So all those little moments that are kind of telling you that you're ready for a change or that you can do something else or something different, or that you can follow the thing that you're really passionate about, maybe it is setting up a market stool and selling beach towels. Maybe that is somebody's absolute dream world. There are so many options and things that we don't always consider because the corporate machine, if you are in that machine, which can be great and there are so many benefits I will never say it's a bad thing to do to go and work in the corporate world because every organisation is different and they all have amazing things about them. But at some point you might go, I'm not sure that's for me anymore. I'm not sure it's the right fit. And actually I'm really looking for some more joy. I'm looking for some more learning. I'm looking for a different way of living my life.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:23:50 - 00:25:38
It's sort of interesting what happens to create that moment, isn't it. As you say, redundancy kind of makes sense to a degree. Although sometimes you're in panic and you get fogged, so you kind of do just get the rebound job and go straight into that. And again, that’s all fine, whatever you decide is right but it's really interesting. If you're in work, what is the moment that you stop and create space to think and it doesn't have to be to escape the nine to five, go and start a business and blah blah. Because I think that kind of messaging might put people off actually doing it, it’s quite hard work and I'd rather just be grumpy and get paid every month than actually do anything about it. But actually what you do, which I kind of like your message, you don't have to escape the nine to five messaging. You can do the work exactly where you're at. You can do the job you're doing in a completely different way, working on yourself to actually enjoy it more. So it is just that moment. I'm really interested in that moment when people go, oh, I'm going to create space to think differently about this. Because you can do that at any time, no matter how busy you are. Business is just a notion. It's just you've attached something to your inbox, to your my manager needs this. My overwhelm. Oh my God, I've got so much work, I haven't got time to think about myself. Well, it's weird how the business doesn't see that when they can just make you redundant the next day and all of that busyness becomes relevant. That's a real moment. But how do you create that moment for yourself if it hasn't been forced on you?

Beth Stallwood 00:25:39 - 00:26:46
I call that imbalanced loyalty. It's the I will give up all of my space and my brain space and everything for the organisation and at the click of a finger, do anything they need, but without considering that they could do that tomorrow. They could come to you tomorrow and say, right, you're done. That's a fact. That is where we are. And that imbalance of the loyalty there is something which I would really encourage everybody, even if you want to be a corporate nine to fiverr or whichever way works for you in the hybrid world, who knows if we're nine to five anymore? But that idea of having the job, that is for an organisation, you're working with them, you're doing it all is you always have to remember there is that thing about you need to take some control over your own working life. You need to take some responsibility. And if you need some time for you, you need to be the one to carve out that time and make it happen. Because no one's going to suddenly go, do you know what, Eleanor, why not take a couple of days to go to Wales and do some thinking about yourself? It's not going to happen. But you could do it yourself. You could make it happen.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:26:47 - 00:28:22
That's probably the biggest moment for somebody to know that they own it. As you've just said, take responsibility and own it. And we can all use excuses because we're all busy people, we can all use excuses for I've not done this, I've not done that, and starting your business, actually, for a lot of people, definitely isn't the answer, because you can do even more excuses of working so hard that you don't have time for anything else. So I think it is, it's taking responsibility for giving yourself time to think, which everything inside of you probably thinks, oh, this is such an indulgence, it's such a luxury item, I shouldn't be doing this. I've got so much on and I'm sitting here just thinking about, what do I really want to do? How can I do things differently? How can I grow in this job right now? Because you don't have to leave your job. You can completely do it differently. I always just say to people, you're doing your job in your way, but somebody can come in and do your job and they can do it differently and leave on time and not get stressed by it. And they will, they'll just do it in a different way. So you've got an opportunity to challenge yourself, because wherever you're at, whether you leave your job, whether you go traveling, you've still got you, you can't escape. You’ve really got to get to know yourself well and help yourself through this stuff.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:23 - 00:29:06
As hard as you might try, you will always be you. And I think that's the thing, isn't it about trying to find the stuff that really works for you and that could be reframing the stuff about the job that you do. I've got a little freebie on my website that’s how to fall back in love with your job. Because so often we've just got ourselves into kind of a real gloom negative zone. And actually, if we really looked at it, there are so many great things about it. So let's focus on them rather than the few things that aren't great. There are so many ways of doing it - it could be setting up your own business, it could be having a side hustle, it could be doing volunteering, which is proven massively to help your mental wellbeing. There are so many different ways of creating your own working life if you make that choice, to own it and to be yourself and to know what you want with it.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:29:06 - 00:29:07
Yeah, definitely.

Beth Stallwood 00:29:08 - 00:29:57
I feel like we need to have a big flag waving - take some ownership, take responsibility and see how much just thinking can really change your attitude to your work and to situations that you're going to be in. Things like redundancy are really hard and they're really scary and our fear responses are massively triggered by stuff like that because we have the idea that we need the security and the financial stuff and all of that is real and we shouldn't ignore that. But there are so many things that you can do to help put yourself in a great position, whether it is getting an emergency other job to tide you through while you do the thinking., Maybe it's doing the thinking before that ever happens. There are so many different ways of doing it. And tell me a little bit, if you don't mind, about Another Door and how some of the work you've done there and how that has helped people in this situation.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:29:58 - 00:31:03
Another Door started as a blog. I should keep a record – thinking out loud here, but of all the ideas and things that I started with in that moment of time. Oh, my goodness. I've probably tried at least 50 things, not all businesses but concepts, ideas. So actually it started as a WordPress blog called ‘How To Be...’ and then it was …made redundant, but it actually then sort of expanded into just ‘How To Be Happy’, ‘How To Be…’ and that's where it started. The WordPress blog was horrendous. I'd never done anything like that before and I activated accidentally the adverts but I didn't know that you could select adverts and it was just all this horrendous. I think I ticked the box for self-care and I'll just leave it to your imagination what kind of adverts were on my blog!

Beth Stallwood 00:31:04 - 00:31:05
Yeah.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:31:06 - 00:32:03
So this was how I started. How To Be… Anyway, so I started there and then interviewing people about how to be a business owner, how to be a blogger, how to be this, how to be that because really, I didn't know. So I thought, well, the best way to find out is interview people and pull it together and it'll be almost like they're teaching me at the same time as creating content. So that's how it started. Then I got to a point of I got a bit bored with how to be and this bluming WordPress, it was absolutely driving me mad. And somebody introduced me to Squarespace, which changed my life. That was the moment my life changed when I found Squarespace. That's not really what people say, is it when they say life changing moments.

Beth Stallwood 00:32:05 - 00:32:08
If it changed your life, it's justified.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:32:08 - 00:32:50
It's what floats your boat. It was so easy. So I shut down the WordPress, I let go of that enough already. It's gone. Goodbye. And started Another Door so I wanted a bit more concept. And where that came from was when I was made redundant, there was quite a few of us going in and out of these meetings and obviously, you know what it's all about. It's a very weird moment in time. I think at one point, a load of people went in for the meetings and when they came out, they'd rearranged their desks already. Like, they'd got this so badly wrong. Facilities had come and rearranged all the desks and people's bags had been moved - it was just like, how to not do it well.

Beth Stallwood 00:32:51 - 00:32:54
How to take the human out of this situation.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:32:55 - 00:33:29
Or how to put the comedy into the situation is how we approached it eventually, because we were like, wow, this is crazy. But anyway, we were sitting there and then somebody who hadn't been made redundant came over to us and they were like, oh, really sorry, blah, blah, blah. But when one door closes, another door opens and told this story of their friend, they got made redundant, blah, blah, blah, and then kind of walked off and we were all like, well, whatever, thanks for the cliche.

Beth Stallwood 00:33:29 - 00:33:33
That's really helpful for the person. You still got your job. Thank you.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:33:33 - 00:34:48
Yeah. Good cliche gift there, which I talk about in the book because you get a lot of cliche gifts when you get made redundant, but that one's a special one. And we were all like, goodbye, and it really wound us up because it's just not what you want to hear at that moment in time. I don't want another door thank you. I am happy with this one, but cheers. So I was quite cross about it and it stuck and then eventually I thought, stop being cross about it, embrace it. That's the whole thing, isn't it? Why is this winding me up so much? What is on the other side of winding up? It could be interesting, so stop wasting energy getting cross about this and cross about that. I'm not that kind of person, to be honest. I think I was over it in about an hour but it's kind of like work on that thing that's annoying you or where you're putting energy and see what's on the other side of it. And I thought, what is on the other side of this other door thing then? That was interesting actually what that person said, what if I can actually create something exciting? And then my friend and I started meeting for coffee. We were the self-help group because we'd all been made redundant. We started meeting for coffee and cake, which is what you do at that point in time, because you could meet.

Beth Stallwood 00:34:49 - 00:34:51
Cake is essential at that point in time, right?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:34:51 - 00:39:09
Oh, massively and especially coffee and walnut cake, actually, with that part of the healing process. So we met for that and we were doing these big, massive coffee mornings that lasted until three in the afternoon, which obviously delighted the cafe owners, but we just chatted about all kinds of shit. And then I said, I'm going to write a book about this. This is just hilarious. This could be really funny. But also we need instructions on this. What are we meant to be doing? How are we actually meant to be doing this? Surely there is a good thing. I'm going to write about it, and so it was a silly sort of comment and that's where the blog came from, but it stuck in my head. Then I found a business coach, Robin Waite, who was based up in Stroud and near to where I live, and he ran this workshop with this lady who said its easier than you maybe think to write book, and she went through self publishing, which I'd never heard of, and talked about how it was. I thought, I'm a writer, I literally write all day. That is corporate comms, it's what I do in this blog. Maybe I should actually do this and stop making a joke of it and do it. That's where the idea came from. Then eventually I got an agent and got a book deal and that’s Another Door. It was a blog, but then it grew into a business because people started reading the blog and saying, I've just been made redundant, I need help. I was getting on calls with people, but I wasn't monetizing it. It was just jumping on calls and I was thinking, oh, my goodness, this is quite a lot of energy drain. That is hard, if I'm going to be honest, because I wasn't earning any money. I was actually in a really deep shit situation and I've got to find something and then listening to other people. So it's actually a really difficult moment. Meeting Robin and coming up with this business proposition really helped. I did change consultancy and I started out placement experience. So Another Door started to grow but this was three years after and this is what I mean, this is not overnight. So over three years, I found another career coach and we created this experience, Five Steps to Thrive When You've Been Made Redundant. You work with us over five weeks, it was really intensive and every day we had something because when you've been made redundant, you need momentum. We loved it and probably about 500 people went through that, maybe 700 at peak. We absolutely loved it because you could see people, they join when it's a horrible moment and as they work through it, suddenly these ideas and things. When COVID hit, we did well, business grew, but the next year, 2021, they moved furlough and suddenly the pipeline disappeared, suddenly people weren't being made redundant. Suddenly there was actually a shortage of skill sets. Everybody needed to recruit. Overnight it felt like the world had shifted and suddenly the business was struggling a little bit so I had to reshape it and pivot. This is the point to maybe get across, it isn't an overnight thing, I don't think it is about just find this perfect dream thing and it's all going to be solved. It's just opening yourself up to thinking in a different way, growing. You're still going to have challenges and messiness, but you're going to be driven by a different source or maybe you've found a different purpose of why you do things. So there's still going to be stuff that comes up, but you may be navigate it differently. So I always want to say that, because I don't want the book to be like, oh, it's just about finding your dream job and it's fine. I think that's a bit of nonsense, really as I don't even know if a dream job exists. But you can certainly grow and you can be a better person. You can help yourself, navigate, change better..

Beth Stallwood 00:39:09 - 00:40:31
Even if there is such a thing as a dream job, the idea that it would be a dream job for the next 50 years is a bit mad because things change. The idea that an organisation is perfect, but people change within organisations and things change. and even with Another Door, you’ve created this great business, but then the world changed and now it needs something different. So actually, things are constantly changing and if we can be more open to that change and be more engaged with the change and what it means for us, versus having everyone else control all that change, I think that's a really interesting thing. It's also really refreshing to hear that it’s not that I've been an overnight success and everything's been perfect, it's been brilliant and just follow my way of doing it. This idea that it's deeply individual and it's about who you are. The other thing I was just really reflecting on - I wrote this down and then I've highlighted it about twelve times - this is a big point, is that nobody in this corporate world is ever given an instruction manual about how you deal with redundancy. Yet it is a feature of the modern workplace that many people will experience in their lifetime. I love the idea that filling the gap with your book because you didn't know how to do it. Nobody knows how to do it. Let's find a way of doing it that makes sense.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:40:32 - 00:42:12
It’s definitely where the idea came from. A funny behind the scenes story about that is it was called How To Be Made Redundant, I think, as a working title and the idea was something to give someone as a package. So my idea was corporates could give it to someone as part of the package of here's how you work through this, here's our outplacement support. We're really sorry, but we're here to support. It was that concept, which I thought was brilliant but then when I got the book deal, which obviously was amazing, Penguin Book Deal, very lucky to get that, but they changed the title to make it more B to C, a more consumer title - Why losing your job could be the best thing…and suddenly my concept of selling that into corporates disappeared overnight because can you imagine as an HR manager or a line manager, I'm really sorry you've lost your job, blah blah, but here, have this book, it's going to be really good. You’d get punched in the face, wouldn't you? So it made it actually less kind of B savvy. I did give it to a few corporates who brought me in to do talks for people because they were doing it really well, so I maybe worked with them in the comms to manage redundancy with care and the book made sense in that context. So I did get a few deals like that but nothing like what I thought it could be.

Beth Stallwood 00:42:12 - 00:42:56
I think it's going to be the best thing for you. It's really interesting though, because I've obviously worked with a lot of people, myself included, but worked with a lot of people who have been through this situation and I can't think of anybody who isn't in a better, more suited, happier place having gone through the icky sticky bit. And that icky sticky bit may last 18 months, two years as you say, it's not a quick turnaround thing. But when you come out the other side of it, people are often in a better position than they were before. And they look back on it going, oh, I'm glad actually somebody made me move because otherwise I'd have got stuck there. But at the time, you can't tell people, oh, this is the best thing that's ever happened to you.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:42:56 - 00:42:57
Exactly.

Beth Stallwood 00:42:59 - 00:43:23
You're probably not quite ready to hear that at that stage in time. You're probably more thinking, how am I going to pay my mortgage? Or like you, what about having another kid? Does this rule this out? What do we do about all of these different things because it's a big part of our life and I think so important here. Before we finish off, tell us a little bit about Recommended - the next phase of where you're at.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:43:23 - 00:47:51
I'm in a real space of play, which I think is important if you want to be an entrepreneurial, sort of self-employed, see how far you can take things, you got to get into this space of playing with ideas and minimal viable product. Not spending money, this is not what it's about. I've never spent loads of money on anything that I've tried. Well, maybe a few bits and pieces which were bad investments at certain points, but certainly played with things for a long time. Another Door was creating people coming out of career change or redundancy and thinking, yeah, I want to do this thing, I'm really clear on it and then we just left them to it. So I felt, what if I can create a directory of what these people are and that's where it started. I could just do a list and loads of people do this - coaching programme do lists and directories - so I did a lot of research in that space and that's what I say is a really important part, do your research on what is already out there. Don't get put off if it's already out there, just give it your way and see how you can improve and give it a different kind of meaning. So I saw lots of directories, but I thought, nobody's really combining it and helping people behind the scenes and really helping people promote. Where else can I take this? And one of my specialist things, I guess, because I'm still consulting in the corporate world, is I can see gaps of people recommending someone who can do blah, blah, blah? Of all the people coming through Another Door, I should know someone. I couldn't really have an answer to everything. There were a couple of things that I could, but not really. So this directory grew as, how can I help people get recommended, be better at absolutely nailing their thing so that you get recommended? Because that's where I get most of my leads from, Somebody will say, I'll go and speak to Eleanor about internal comms or culture change or change comms in my corporate space so I get most of my work through word of mouth and recommendations because they know that's what I do. And then in the B2C world, it's recommendations because someone will say, oh, yeah, Eleanor works with people who've been made redundant, or she can talk. I'm on a talk tonight for Stylist and that's through a recommendation because they know, oh, that's what you do. It's being really clear it's not about just one thing and letting go of it all, but it's about what are you dialing up in that space that really hooks people in and then starts associating your name to it? So the Recommended platform is a directory of sorts, but it's far much more and where I want to take it now is this community side. I want it to be a corporate matchmaker because so many corporates out there looking for fresh ideas, people to actually work with and collaborate with, rather than going to a maybe traditional training company and just, okay, that's what you do. We'll pull it off the shelf and we'll put it into the business. What if we can create a community. I work for corporate clients same as you do, Beth, and they don't want things off the shelf. They want things that fit the strategy, but who is out there doing it? So it's bringing people together, experts, maybe they're just new experts. We've all got to start somewhere, or maybe they've been in what they've done for a while, but they want to do it in a different way, or they want to scale it. They want maybe to create an interesting corporate offer or a keynote talk from it or get more media exposure or do a book or whatever it is. It's just helping connect people in the community. People who are like yourself, Beth, people who've already got a book out there, they've done the thinking, but, okay, well, what's next? It's this thriving kind of mindset of how do I connect with interesting corporates who want to do interesting things and take my mission and kind of grow with it? So, yeah, that's what Recommended is - it's a real experiment at the moment, but absolutely loving the people in there and excited for where it's going to go this year.

Beth Stallwood 00:47:52 - 00:48:47
I think it's such good advice to anyone who is in the entrepreneurial world or thinking about doing or having a side hustle or anything in this state is always be experimenting. There's always options to try things out and to do things differently and to give things a go. The other side of it, I think, is whenever you can build that kind of sense of community and connection with other people, because if you do go into what they call the solopreneur world or you're working for yourself, you've gone freelance, you don't necessarily have the same connections that you did when you were in an organisation if you were in a corporate. It's not as easy to just have that instant network. You really have to make an effort and invest in it and that kind of thing where you bring people together. I might say, oh, actually, this particular thing isn't my expertise but I know Eleanor, she'd be great to bring in here. It's almost like an ecosystem of amazing people together who can recommend each other. Hence why it's called Recommended!

Eleanor Tweddell 00:48:48 - 00:48:53
It's almost like it was designed that way. I mean, it wasn't obviously, but yeah, exactly.

Beth Stallwood 00:48:55 - 00:48:57
It's almost like you thought about that.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:48:57 - 00:49:10
So I was going to say, it's almost like I had a business plan. So last week I'm going to name drop, but I went to a roundtable chat with Theo Pathesis, from the Dragons Den.

Beth Stallwood 00:49:10 - 00:49:11
Oh, yeah, right.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:49:11 - 00:51:06
There were five other entrepreneurs and then his bank manager, and the investment team at Coutts and Nat West, so like ten people and we were talking about all sorts. It was such a brilliant discussion. It was all about small business but most of the businesses there were product based and obviously what we do is more service. So he asked who invests, who's gone for investment, and we were chatting about it and I said, well, for a start, the language puts people like me off because I don't have some of the things that I'm immediately asked for. And I said, let's be honest, some of my members that I work with, that I mentor, that I help create businesses for, they don't have 60 page business plans. He nearly choked on his lunch and said what? Everybody has to have a business plan and I was like they don't. In this world, you don't. There's so many people out there that you guys are just not recognising because you can start a business now with a TikTok account and suddenly you're making X amount of money and you have no business plan. We almost need to change the language to recognise that some things are changing. In some parts, of course it's still traditional, but in other parts it's not. I'm hybrid; I've got a business plan, but it's a one pager. You don't have to have a really comprehensive business plan, but it's really good to know what you're doing and why. But I had to kind of backtrack a little bit and say, yeah, of course I've got a business plan.

Beth Stallwood 00:51:09 - 00:51:59
If you want to invest with me, I'll have a business plan ready for you at 10:00pm tonight. I’ll write it on the train on the way home. It’s interesting, isn't it? Product and service based businesses are very different and you need different things to make them work. But you're so right. That kind of investment is often in the product space versus the consulting service, support based stuff. Oh, so interesting. I'm going to have to move us on to our quick fire questions. We could just chat all day and then I'll be like, how on earth do we edit this to make it within an hour for the podcast? So I'm going to stop us and we can just have an offline conversation in even more detail. So, quick fire questions for you personally, what is always guaranteed to bring you a little bit of work joy?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:52:03 - 00:52:06
Oh, I know what always guarantees me joy.

Beth Stallwood 00:52:06 - 00:52:07
Yeah, do that.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:52:07 - 00:52:15
You know when you order a coffee and you get a biscuit on the side, you didn't order it. Love that.

Beth Stallwood 00:52:19 - 00:52:21
It's pure joy, isn't it?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:52:21 - 00:53:05
I mean, it actually is. I was actually sharing that as an example at a company yesterday that I was presenting to about values and excitement, and I was like, you know that word excitement? People have probably mixed emotions about it. I'm from the north. We don't really do excitement. I don't understand those Love Island girls, when they're screaming. I can't deal with any of that. I can't handle it. But what is my excitement? It’s that biscuit with a coffee. I don't know why, but I'm not even being sarcastic. I love it. It's just like a moment of joy and especially that one that's got the wrapper on it.

Beth Stallwood 00:53:06 - 00:53:09
Yeah, I know what you mean.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:53:09 - 00:53:10
Probably not what you meant.

Beth Stallwood 00:53:10 - 00:53:25
But if that brings you joy, I am happy to experience it with you and agree with you that that is a delightful thing. And I think if I was to expand it bigger, it's when you get something great that you're not expecting.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:53:26 - 00:53:37
Exactly. Beth you see, you need to be just sitting on my shoulder the whole time. What is she talking about? Oh, she means this. The translation.

Beth Stallwood 00:53:37 - 00:54:11
I'll give you a little story very quickly about this. I have a friend, stroke client, stroke colleague who sometimes phones me up, and she says, Beth, I just need to talk at you for about ten minutes, and I need you to tell me what it is I'm thinking in a simpler way. And she does it, and I go, I think you mean this, this, and this. And she goes, yes, that's it. Thank you. Bye. That's what I just did there. It's the extra little bit of unexpected joy of things that come to you, and who doesn't like a Biscoff Biscuit. Love it. Question two: What book are you currently reading?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:54:13 - 00:55:35
So currently, right in front of me, I always have two books, if not three books on the go. I always have, a nonfiction, and then I have a fiction book. I have Lessons in Chemistry, which is just a fiction book, really interesting. I think it was like a top seller, so you just escape into a really good book. And then my other book is Happy High Status by Viv Grosskop. She sent me it, I was very honoured to be sent it. She gave me a testimony for my book, and so there's a little bit of connection there and she's in the Penguin family and so she sent me it, but it was on my list anyway. She's just an amazing writer. Everyone can write a book, but not everyone is a writer. That's a fact. There's so many people now chucking these books out, and they're not writers. You read it and you think, oh, my God, this is really hard work. But I love her writing. I'm in awe of it. And yeah, just get the book. It's all about effortless, confidence. But she tells stories. She's a storyteller. And it's a master class in how to write a self help book without being boring.

Beth Stallwood 00:55:36 - 00:55:43
Love that. And it's so funny because you are the second person on this season of podcast to recommend that book.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:55:44 - 00:55:45
Oh, wow.

Beth Stallwood 00:55:45 - 00:55:51
I always buy all the books that people recommend, so I definitely have to buy it now.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:55:52 - 00:56:05
Happy High Status only came out yesterday, so maybe they got a preview as well. It’s like a lift as you climb and how to own the room. Yeah, she's just a brilliant writer.

Beth Stallwood 00:56:05 - 00:56:16
Yeah. Love it. What is one bit of advice or guidance that somebody has given you in your lifetime that you always find yourself coming back to?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:56:21 - 00:56:53
A bit of guidance? God, you know what? I find that quite hard because probably I've spent most of my life just ignoring people's advice. Well, maybe that's just rightly or wrongly, it's probably been really good advice, but something inside of me goes, yeah, I hear you, but I'm going to do the opposite. So it's really weird. I've always had this very weird thing inside of me that even with the best advice in the world, there's something inside that goes, that's really, really good, you should do that. Why are you doing the opposite then, Eleanor?

Beth Stallwood 00:56:55 - 00:56:56
You’re inner rebel.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:56:56 - 00:57:42
I don't know what it is, just being awkward. Probably it was my mum, she gives really good advice and she doesn't mince her words. She's very unfiltered and she always just brings me back to Earth with a lot of things. She gave the advice of ‘you can run as far as you like, but you're never going to run away from yourself’. And that was when I kind of wanted to go traveling and things and she was totally supportive of it. But you know that you're never going to run away from yourself. You have to deal with yourself and the things that you cause because it's you creating this. So you can run as far as way as you like, but you're never going to run away from yourself.

Beth Stallwood 00:57:43 - 00:57:47
I kind of feel like sometimes I need a talking to from your mum. That would probably be really helpful.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:57:48 - 00:57:56
But it's just not what you want to hear. I don't want to hear the real life. I want you to just pretend.

Beth Stallwood 00:57:56 - 00:58:03
Support me unconditionally in all my dreams. I am but you also have to remember that I'm going to tell you the truth.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:58:03 - 00:58:03
Yeah.

Beth Stallwood 00:58:04 - 00:58:16
It's a blooming great bit of advice that remember that actually, however far you run, however many different organisations you work for, however many times you go traveling or escape to your holiday, etc, you always have to come back and be you.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:58:17 - 00:58:17
Yeah.

Beth Stallwood 00:58:17 - 00:58:19
So make you feel good.

Eleanor Tweddell 00:58:19 - 00:58:20
Yeah. So annoying.

Beth Stallwood 00:58:21 - 00:58:42
So annoying. I'd love to be other people for a day. Right? Almost final question is what is one super practical tip, trick, bit of advice, bit of guidance, suggestion that you would give to our listeners that you think would help them get a little bit more joy in their day?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:58:44 - 00:59:26
I think it is about we've kind of touched on it, but I really feel like embrace messiness. Because I think a lot of our unjoy comes from us trying to get everything right and striving for made up perfection that we've just made it up. Perfection is in the eye of the beholder. It's just what you're creating. So we kind of create this stuff around us and it becomes unjoy. But if you embrace a bit of messiness, accept that you're going to get a few things wrong every now and again. You might have to be like, oh my goodness, what did I do? Just embrace it and work on that. I think joy can come from that.

Beth Stallwood 00:59:26 - 00:59:56
I totally agree. And in fact, I might name this episode. That because I think that's a really good one. Embrace the messiness. I used to have a boss who always used to say to me, ask for forgiveness, not permission. Just work through stuff. If you get it wrong, what’s the harm? Perfectionism isn't actually helpful in any way, shape or form, so love that. Embrace the messiness. And then my final question for you Eleanor is, where can people find out more about you and your work?

Eleanor Tweddell 00:59:57 - 01:00:06
I am probably mostly on LinkedIn. I am terrible on all of the social media places, so I won't bother following me on them.

Beth Stallwood 01:00:08 - 01:00:11
Let's not be perfect. We don't need to be perfect.

Eleanor Tweddell 01:00:11 - 01:01:46
I do really bad social media on Instagram. I am on Instagram, if you want really bad entertainment, definitely follow me there. But Another Door is on there and actually there's a social media manager who does another door and she's really good. So actually, she actually does a really nice job of Another Door on Instagram. LinkedIn is more where I hang out so follow me to feel better about yourself. I share everything, I share the bad, the good, the stupid ideas and people often send me messages saying, oh, you've made me feel like I can just put something out there and it's all right. Which kind of makes me feel like, oh, my God, am I such a dickhead? Because they're like, well, if she can do it, I can do it. And that's kind of the vibe. I am a bit of a dickhead, so it's fine. But if I can encourage people just to feel it doesn't matter. I get paid a lot of money by corporates for doing it. It hasn't affected how I do my work. I think that's what people fear about LinkedIn, isn't it? What if I'm not seen as a professional anymore? Will anyone take me seriously? But I'm really good at what I do, so I don't have to worry about that. I'm totally good at it. So if I want to put a stupid funny thing on LinkedIn, I'm going to do it. So follow me and then please tag me in your funny thing in LinkedIn, I will support you to get out there and just be yourself and enjoy it. Beth, this is what you're about - enjoy your work, share the funny stuff, share the joy.

Beth Stallwood 01:01:46 - 01:02:22
It's a third of your life working. You might as well enjoy it. Why would you want to be miserable there? I'm just laughing about your LinkedIn thing because I have realised recently that when I spend ages thinking about some really thoughtful content for LinkedIn, it goes like proper tumbleweed. Nobody has anything to say. I think still my best post ever is when I forgot to take my poo bags for my dog and I had to fashion a leaf based poo bag to pick up a dog poo with was my best performing post ever.

Eleanor Tweddell 01:02:23 - 01:02:25
There you go. You see?

Beth Stallwood 01:02:25 - 01:02:32
There you go. Embrace the messiness in very literal ways, literally.

Eleanor Tweddell 01:02:32 - 01:02:34
Wow, I love that.

Beth Stallwood 01:02:34 - 01:02:46
And my second best performing one, I think, was when I got my up and down desk and was sitting there playing with it, going up and down and doing a video of that. So, you know, you're like, not everyone needs really serious content all the time. Sometimes we can have some fun.

Eleanor Tweddell 01:02:47 - 01:02:51
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Not everybody needs thought leadership.

Beth Stallwood 01:02:53 - 01:03:05
And what we'll do is we'll put the link to your LinkedIn and all the different things into the show notes that people can click on straight through. Thank you so much for chatting with me today, Eleanor. It's been an absolute joy.

Eleanor Tweddell 01:03:05 - 01:03:07
Thank you for having me, Beth.

Beth Stallwood 01:03:10 - 01:04:42
Well, a huge thank you to Eleanor for joining me on today's podcast. I really hope you enjoyed it. There are lots of lessons that I have taken from this, and in particular the one that we've named the episode after, which is Embrace That Mess. The icky sticky part is the bit where if you can work through it, if you can feel that, oh, I'm not sure where I'm heading. If you can stick with that, if you can do the work, if you can do the exploration, if you can do some of the experiments and try some things out, the great stuff is often on the other side of the ick. So rather than trying to circumnavigate the messy, go with it, work through it and see where that might lead you to. Thank you so much for listening to the WorkJoy Jam. We have many other episodes in the seven seasons now available on wherever you get your podcasts. Do have a little look around. I like to think of it as a little pick and mix. Different people, lots of different experiences, different backgrounds, different careers that might help you to get a little bit of inspiration for building your work joy. And remember, you can always head to our website. There's a couple of freebies there createworkjoy.com. There's a freebie that I talked about in the session, which is how to fall back in love with your job. There's also another one that helps you track and understand better where you get your work Joy from. It's called Workjoy; where do you get yours? Thanks for listening and I will speak to you again soon.