Beth Stallwood 00:00:00 - 00:02:08
Welcome to the WorkJoy Jam podcast. I'm your host, Beth Stallwood, founder of Create WorkJoy. Today I am joined by Kathryn Bishop. Now, Kathryn has been a leader in business for many years. She's a lecturer that helps people to become great leaders in organisations, and she'll introduce herself more deeply as we go into the episode. But one thing that I think is really interesting about the conversation we have is this idea of applying strategy to our careers and how do we think about utilising all these models and thinking, and some of the best practice etc, but applying them to ourselves and thinking about how that can influence the steps we take, the actions we deliver on, how we consider and plan and plot and do the things that will really help us within our careers. I personally think this is a fascinating way of looking at career development from a really different angle from where I have considered it before. So I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Well, I am delighted today to join us on the WorkJoy Jam, the lovely Kathryn Bishop. Now, I've got lots of things to say about Kathryn because I've just been reading her books and they are really, really good and I'm very excited for our conversation. But rather than me introduce Kathryn, can I hand over to you because we're always much, much better at introducing ourselves? Kathryn, can you tell us a little bit about you, who you are and what you do?

Kathryn Bishop 00:02:09 - 00:02:51
Well, first of all, hello and thank you very much for having me on today's session. I combine teaching and getting stuff done in organisations and I've been doing that for about the last 20 years. Blending working inside organisations with people, with a little bit of working in lecture theatres and classrooms. I teach at the Business School at the University of Oxford. I've been a Non-Exec and a Director on various boards, I'm a trustee of a charity, I've worked in a University, I've worked in organisations that sell stuff. So I've had quite a varied career and learned loads along the way.

Beth Stallwood 00:02:51 - 00:03:15
I love that and I like a combined career. I feel like doing more than one thing is so popular now and it gives us so many different opportunities to learn different things. But before we dive into what you do now, can you tell us about this career you've had because those wonderful things, being trustees, working at universities, organisations that sell stuff, where did you start and how did it lead you to where you are today?

Kathryn Bishop 00:03:15 – 00:04:42
So this is an odd story. I think my career started in the reading room of a library at the University of Oxford, because I was headed for an academic career. I was going to finish my PhD and that was where I was headed. I had one of those ‘Road to Damascus’ moments where I pulled a book down off the shelf. It was a collection of articles, and one of the articles was a 15 pager about Doctor Samuel Johnson's use of the word also and I looked at it and went, do you know, I don't really think this is going to be for me. I can't imagine spending the rest of my life doing this kind of stuff. So literally that day, I went up to the university career service and said, right, I think I probably need a job and they gave me a list and I applied to them in alphabetical order and I basically became a consultant. I worked for Accenture for a decade. Frankly, I picked them because the name began with a, and that was where I started. But more seriously, I also picked them because I got an enormous amount of varied experience with them and then I decided I'd go and work in an organisation that makes stuff and sells stuff. And then I decided I'd work for university. Each of those transitions was at a different time in my life when things were happening outside work, you know, work and life, your work and your home life have to fit together.

Beth Stallwood 00:04:43 - 00:05:00
And I think that's such an important point, is our careers don't happen in isolation of the rest of our lives, do they? They are part and whenever anyone says the things about work life balance to me, I'm like, but they're all part of life. We're in one big thing called life, and our careers and our jobs are part of that.

Kathryn Bishop 00:05:00 - 00:05:37
Yeah. I try not to use the phrase work life balance. I try to say work home balance and interestingly, although this is a navigational issue for everyone, I think it’s particularly demanding for women because we play lots of roles outside work and therefore the balancing problem is especially complex. And that's one of the reasons why I became really interested in how women navigate their own careers and make changes, move to different things, change their role or their working schedule.

Beth Stallwood 00:05:37 - 00:05:58
Yeah, and let's dive into that because one of your lovely books that I've got here and I'm holding up, even though we're not on camera, Make Your Own Map: Career Success Strategy for Women. Tell us a little bit about what inspired you to write this book, and then we can dive into some of the things that are included within it that might help our listeners.

Kathryn Bishop 00:05:59 - 00:07:09
Okay, well, I'm going to start by telling you another story. So about 15 years ago, I was in a lecture theatre at the Business School at Oxford, working with a colleague who's a genius strategy professor. We were helping the board of a global organisation think about market positioning and competitive frameworks. And at one point he turned to them in the discussion and he said, oh, by the way, do you have a strategy for you because if you don't, you should. And that for me was a real light bulb moment. Oh, these strategy frameworks that I use and teach and use with organisations, I can actually use them on myself. And since that time I've spent more than a decade testing these ideas with men and women applying strategy models to themselves, to their own career trajectories, as if they were an organisation. Some models didn't work and didn't find their way into the book. Some did definitely work and one or two are in the book and they're not classic strategy models, but they're still useful.

Beth Stallwood 00:07:09 - 00:07:50
It's such an interesting thing and I love these moments that you've had throughout your career – the ‘I'm not sure I can write 15 pages on things like the word also’. I mean, that is a moment in time. I'm sure there are some people listening who would be like, oh, I'd love to get that deep into one particular thing. And then a moment here where you're going, hang on a minute, why don't we apply all this business strategy that has so much research behind it and so many very clever people thinking about it all the time, but actually applying it to us as individuals and thinking about how do we think more strategically about our careers? And when you say it sounds obvious, doesn't it? But perhaps something that we haven't really explored too much.

Kathryn Bishop 00:07:50 - 00:08:46
Yes, and sometimes it doesn't seem obvious. So then you have to draw out the fact that organisations are trying to move through complicated, changing markets to achieve some version of success, whatever they conceive that to be. And actually that's exactly the same problem that we all face, men and women. We're trying to move through complicated employment in markets which are changing, to achieve our own particular definition of success. And I think that's the second thing that is important about my book, the definition of success for the reader is whatever they choose it to be, it's not the same for everybody. Maybe it's promotion and the corner office, maybe it's a balanced work and home life, maybe it's financial security, maybe it's a job where you're learning a lot or making a big contribution, whatever, it works for you.

Beth Stallwood 00:08:47 - 00:09:56
Such an important point there that success has, I think, in society become this very defined thing which not everybody wants. It's not the big office for everybody. It's not about being in charge for everyone. Some people love to be really deep in their specialism, in their subject and be able to do that. Like, I love new and exciting things so any kind of business as usual if I were employed, would not be the kind of thing for me. And I know this about myself, because if I'm in a state where I've done all the change stuff and I'm, like, thinking about stuff, I need to break something to make it so that I can fix things again. So that's just not for me. But other people love that security of knowing the process and understanding how it all works and pulling it all together. And this is, I think, where what I talk about, what you talk about linked so closely together, is where is the joy in what we do and how do we find the joy through our careers? Because I know for sure, with the kind of people I've coached, men and women, there comes a point where some people go, oh, I got to the version of what I thought success would be like, and I've realised this isn't actually what I want to do anymore.

Kathryn Bishop 00:09:57 - 00:10:56
I think anymore is the key thing there, because the other thing I've learned through my own life, through working with thousands of men and women, is that actually our definition of success changes through our lives. So navigating is a real skill that you have to keep using. You change, your context changes, and so what you want out of your work changes. But just coming back to the parallels between my book and work joy, I came up with this phrase - if you can be the right person with the right skills in the right job, in the right organisation at the right time in your life, then you can be successful and happy, and you will make a real difference in the world. And it's finding that intersection. Right person, right skills, right job at the right time in your life, in the right organisation. And that's why I'm so interested in navigation.

Beth Stallwood 00:10:56 - 00:12:08
And it's such a lovely way of thinking about it as well, because you can navigate in many directions. And you can change direction if you can navigate your way through it. And I also think it's so interesting, the right organisation, the right, I haven't got them in the right order, but the right organisation, the right skills, the right time in your life, pulling these things together is all of that is constantly changing, because the skills we need in the workplace are changing. I mean, if you look about the context of now and we're all kind of in this zone of, oh, what does AI mean for my job? And how do I work with that rather than against it? Or what do I do about that? Our skills are constantly needing change. And sometimes there's a missing link, isn't there, when we're looking for our next job? So sometimes it feels like the right time, the right organisation, but maybe we haven't got one of the skills that they're looking for. Sometimes we've done all the work on our skills and we're waiting for that opportunity to come up and nobody's moving anywhere, so that there's no kind of place for you to go. And sometimes we've got all the right skills and the organisation is right, but our life stage or what's going on at home doesn't really fit with what is needed. So finding all that stuff and bringing it together is a bit of a jigsaw indeed.

Kathryn Bishop 00:12:08 - 00:12:54
It's a genuine strategic problem, requires a degree of self knowledge, self awareness, which is one of the reasons I think reflection is so useful. But it's also one of the reasons why in the book I include a model that is not a genuine strategy model, but is really very useful for the process of self reflection. Just keeping up to date with yourself and what your definition of success is right now. And that's the Ikigai model, which is a sort of simplified version of a Japanese philosophical concept where you're looking for something that the world needs, something that I love, something that I'm good at, and probably for most of us, something that I can be paid for because we have to pay the rent.

Beth Stallwood 00:12:54 - 00:13:20
It’s so funny because there are lots of jobs that I would very happily do but wouldn't pay very much but being able to pull all those things together and sometimes, I don't know how you feel about this, I'd love the strategy that we could all have these four things all the time. We can all be in that space. Sometimes we might say, do you know what? I'm going to do the thing I'm good at, even though I don't love it, because the world needs it and I can be paid for it. And three out of four isn't too bad.

Kathryn Bishop 00:13:21 - 00:13:47
That's exactly right. Sometimes the Ikigai model is used to suggest that the only thing worth searching for is the intersection of all four. Actually, another strategy is to build a portfolio of activities which together meet all four dimensions. But as you say, one of them may only hit two or three, and that's about building your life rather than just your work.

Beth Stallwood 00:13:47 - 00:14:24
I've worked with a lot of people who have maybe been in kind of the corporate end of the world. I'll use this one as an example but there's lots of different ones. They've been in the corporate end of the world, they're really good at it, they get paid for it but they're not necessarily so in love for it. The world probably does need it, but they have an itch that they want to scratch, which is more about doing something that adds some good into the world or that makes them feel what they're passionate about. And that's where things like, and you said that you've done it, being a trustee or an Non-Exec Director or volunteering and adding that into your life, not just in your career, can build this wonderful richness of things that bring you joy.

Kathryn Bishop 00:14:25 - 00:14:55
I completely agree and I think further, several people ask me regularly, so I’d really like to be a Non-Exec on a board but how do I start? And actually, the answer is volunteer. Volunteer for a charity, become a trustee, become a school governor. You will learn very useful skills. You will learn about being an independent member of a board. You'll have something to talk about at interview, and actually, you will also make a difference.

Beth Stallwood 00:14:55 - 00:15:37
If I add on top of that, it's so good for your career. Volunteering has been proven to be massively brilliant for your mental health and your wellbeing so it has so many different things. More connections, different people to work with.. So I'm definitely a big fan of the volunteering as an option to help you grow, to learn, to connect, to do all kinds of different things in your world and in your life. I mean, we obviously can't go through the whole book in 40 minutes, but could you tell us how you've applied and maybe give us an example of a strategy model that you've used and looked at? How do we apply it to ourselves and our lives and our careers?

Kathryn Bishop 00:15:37 - 00:16:51
Okay, so my first book contains 9 different strategy models. Strategy is a process, is really trying to answer three questions. A clear eyed assessment of where I am now, what are my resources, what have I got to work with, what skills and experience do I have either as an individual or an organisation. The second question is, where do I want to be? Easy to ask, very hard to answer. And the third question then is, all right, so how do I get there? And my first book is divided into three sections with a set of models that help you think about all three questions. A set of models that helps you really reflect on how you got to where you are now and the resources you have available, the skills and experience, how you're spending your time. The middle section contains four different models to help you answer that most exciting but difficult question. Ooh, where do I want to be in future? And then the final section contains some frameworks to help you think about the so what am I going to do and how am I going to get there?

Beth Stallwood 00:16:52 - 00:18:49
It’s really anything you say about the where do I want to be as being the hard bit of that and I think it is really, really tough. And one thing I find now, I think more than ever, and I don't know if you've experienced this, is we are not short of jobs in this world. There are a huge variety of things that are available to us, which, if we've been stuck in one area or one type of industry or one type of specialism, it's really hard to know whether we would be any good at them. And while we're on air, I'm going to talk about this anyway, because I want to build this and I'd be interested in your perspective on it. I think that exploring where do I want to be is really hard because we often don't have access to explore. So we can Google stuff, we can look into things. If we've got friends in that kind of area, we might be able to find out more. But I'm on a bit of a mission. I'm going to look at this for next year, is to think about how do we do what I'm calling grown up work experience. So, in our country, we're both in the UK, kids do work experience at like 16, usually somewhere around there, maybe 17, and it's often based on who can get them a space, not usually based on a particular area they really, really, really want to work in. And by the way, as a 16 year old, I had no idea what I wanted to do. So as a 36 or a 46 or a 56 year old, and I'm looking at maybe changing what I do, it's actually really hard to know what some of those things are. So my vision, I've done nothing on it yet Kathryn, so I can't give you an answer, but my vision is that we'd have some kind of national program where you can go and find out more about working in robotics, or working in a university, or working in a specific industry or sector or skill based or profession. But I think the world is so wide, filtering those options can feel really hard.

Kathryn Bishop 00:18:51 - 00:19:42
I completely agree. Two of the words I use a lot in my book and indeed in my teaching is networking, the importance of meeting people and really talking to them and finding out about their working lives, but also shadowing, an opportunity that actually we have more power to create ourselves than we think we do. So to be able to find someone in your network and to ask them, can I just shadow you for a day? Particularly for younger people, people earlier on in their career, to be able to get a sense of what would it be like in this job in five or ten years time? Actually, many people are willing to do that. More people are willing to do that than we think. We have more agency in that area.

Beth Stallwood 00:19:42 - 00:20:52
And I think that's the point. It's like to be able to do that and ask those questions you've got to invest in your network, and that network needs to be probably wider than the people you spend every day working with to be able to give you that perspective. And I always say to people, networking, it sounds awful, but networking doesn't have to be done at a networking event. Networking can be done one to one in conversations. And actually having a great network is usually about the depth of the relationship you have with people than it is the I've got loads of people's business cards from some horrible event, dodgy croissants at dawn, and feeling a bit weird about people selling stuff to you. So I would very, very much agree. And actually, that's also the power of asking, isn't it? Navigating your own career and saying, do you know what? I can try some of this stuff. And I can ask my friend's brother's half sister, who I know works in that area, could I ask them, could I take them for a coffee and pick their brains about something? Could I shadow them? Could I get to know them? Could they introduce me to somebody? Those things we're all in control of, and I actually think it's probably bigger than this. I'd love to know your perspective on this one, is how much we think other people are in control versus how much we're in control of our careers.

Kathryn Bishop 00:20:53 - 00:21:23
I completely agree. Just, I'll come back to that one just before we leave the networking thing. One of the ways to begin to overcome the natural reluctance you may be feeling is to remind yourself that you also have something to offer other people. So rather than focusing on what can I get from this network, start by thinking, what can I give? Because maybe there's somebody in the network who would really like to shadow you because you're doing the job that they would like to be doing in future.

Beth Stallwood 00:21:23 - 00:21:25
Great idea. Yeah, love that.

Kathryn Bishop 00:21:26 - 00:22:17
Coming back to the actual question you asked, the comment you made about feeling in control. The third section of my book talks a lot about planning, but actually it also talks about emergent strategy, experimenting, because I think I am probably not a great fan of a career plan, at least not one that's more than 18 months, two years in advance. I'm a big fan of strategy, a sense of where I'm broadly trying to get to at the moment, because, of course, there are opportunities that arise all the time that may or may not be in my plan. So too rigid a focus on planning can actually blind you to some opportunities that might arise suddenly and be really good.

Beth Stallwood 00:22:18 - 00:22:57
That's so true. My most hated, I think, question that people ask people interview is, where do you want to be in five years time? And I'm always like, I have no idea, because I don't know where the world's going to be in five years time. And how can I respond to that question, not knowing that bit? Maybe I know where I might want to be. I might know the direction, I might know the level, I might know the industry, I might know the earning potential, I might have, I might know some of the information but the idea that you can plan in that much detail for me, just, I find that really hard. So I love the idea of emergent strategy and experimentation as a way of finding our way through things.

Kathryn Bishop 00:22:58 - 00:23:34
Somebody once said, you can think yourself into a new way of acting, or you can act yourself into a new way of thinking. And the experimenting idea has some elements of acting your way into a new way of thinking. Go and explore. Go and see what that has to offer. Take a voluntary role in a field that you don't know very much about. You may not be absolutely brilliant because of your lack of experience, but you will be making a contribution as a volunteer and you definitely learn along the way.

Beth Stallwood 00:23:34 - 00:24:19
People often think, and I'd be, again, interested in your perspective on this, I come across a lot of people who think that because they've worked in one particular industry for a long time, that's the only industry where they can really add value because it's the only industry they know. And I'd like to bust that myth a little bit because your skills in most, I'm not going to say every single role because it's not true, but in most roles, especially in kind of your office based, knowledge based, corporate type roles, most of your skills are transferable. They are things that you can take to new organisations and what you lack, I think when you go into a different type of industry or organisation, you make up for in being a fresh and different perspective for them. So it's not all about knowing everything all the time.

Kathryn Bishop 00:24:19 - 00:26:04
Absolutely. Chapter eight of my book is called Making a Career Transition and in that chapter, I use, again, a simplified version of what's called the Ansoff Matrix, which is a strategic framework that organisations use to plot and plan growth. And basically it has two dimensions. It says, this is the product that I have, these are the products I could offer, this is the market I'm in, and these are the markets I could also reach. And the idea is that there are three different approaches. You can use your existing product in a new market, you can use a new product in your existing market, or you can change everything both at once. You can suddenly develop a new product and move into a new market. And those three strategies are open to us as individuals, too. The pivot is a bit easier. So these are my skills. I'm an IT analyst in the high tech sector, but I could move into retail with those skills, for example. Or I'm in the retail sector. I'm in it, but I'd really like to be in marketing so I'll stay in that sector. Or I would like to come and do something completely different and I'd like to teach maths in school. Those three different strategies have different levels of risk associated with them. And there are times in your life when you might want to make a small pivot using your existing skills in a different organisation, say, but there are some times in your life where you think, no, I'm going to make a complete change. I'm going to take the risk. I'm going to do something completely different in a completely different sector. And then, as you say, there is a lot, you have a lot to offer, fresh perspective, and you have a lot to learn, too.

Beth Stallwood 00:26:04 - 00:27:28
For me personally, I'm always like, what can I learn in these organisations? And if you think about that learning mindset, wherever you go, there will be something that you can learn. But some people prefer the less risky option. And you're so right about it doesn't have to be one way or another. And maybe this is part of the reflection that you do at the beginning. It's like, where do I want to head? Is now the right time for big risky moves? Or is now the right time for not. Is now the right time where I can take up that if I need to go and do some learning or some training or some qualifications to be able to do that? Have I got the space in my life to make that happen so that I can go and do those things? It's really interesting. I love this thinking of yourself as the product and the employer as the marketplace and just applying all these strategic things to ourselves and really considering them and different ways that we can utilise all of this information and thinking that's out there in a different way. So just putting a different perspective on it all.

Kathryn Bishop00:27:06 - 00:27:28
Sometimes it's hard to sit down and do self reflection. You know, those questions, as I've said, are easy to ask, what do I want? Where do I want to be? But they are hard to answer. And using these frameworks, these kind of tools for thinking, sometimes generates new insights that you wouldn't have any other way.

Beth Stallwood 00:27:28 - 00:27:52
And some language for yourself. So that one you've just done there, I've thought about those different things many, many times, like which bit are you changing, but putting it into that kind of matrix and going product or market, it's like, oh, okay, I know what I'm doing now. Sometimes I think when you put language to something, it helps it become more and more understandable and helps you also think that maybe you're not going completely mad when you're thinking these things.

Kathryn Bishop 00:27:53 - 00:28:13
It gives you a bit of distance and one of the things I also find is that using a strategy framework to think about yourself kind of legitimizes your self reflection. It reminds you this is not self indulgent staring out of the window and thinking about myself. This is strategizing for my own career.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:13 - 00:28:38
Yeah, and that you’re worthy of this attention. Oh, I love it. Go off the sideline here but you've also written another book. Obviously, we want to dive in. We love the career navigation, love all this language and the strategic approach. Tell us about the second book that you've written.

Kathryn Bishop 00:28:40 - 00:28:46
I enjoyed writing the first book, but I'm an extrovert and writing a book by yourself is quite a lonely activity.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:47 - 00:28:48
It really is.

Kathryn Bishop 00:28:48 - 00:30:33
So this second book is written with a colleague who's now become a friend and it's about something that we both have plenty of good and bad experience of, which is being a board member, whether it's in a private sector organisation, a public body, a charity, whatever it may be. We were sitting back having coffee one day and thinking about regulatory requirements and the codes of governance and structures and terms of reference. But, you know, that's not it. What really makes the difference, what makes governance live and frankly, what makes governance interesting, is the conversation, the eyeball to eyeball discussion we have about really important issues, the question and answer, asking and listening. And so the book is about our experience of being on a board. It's called Board Talk - 18 crucial conversations that count inside and outside the boardroom, and its purpose is really twofold, to help people who are already on boards acknowledge the significance of the conversations that they have, the talking and listening, but actually also to encourage people who might think to themselves, oh, I'm not sure a boardroom is really for me to join a board, because it's about conversation and we all know how to talk. I think organisations need really good people on boards in order to help them do whatever they're doing and to contribute to the sustainability agenda, for example. So the more we can encourage good people to step up and be on a board, I think the better. And that's probably what the book's for.

Beth Stallwood 00:30:34 - 00:31:11
And I love the idea that it can be for people who are already doing it, or to encourage people into it, maybe to use it as a little bit of a guide. If you're stepping onto a board for the first time, and I know a lot of people have kind of board membership on their career plans, on things that they want to do, whether that's outside of work or inside of their working life. There's also a lot of people who think about that as a part of a portfolio career as well, with doing lots of different things and having more than one thing, more than one string to their bow. But being on a board is not something we're particularly well trained for.

Kathryn Bishop 00:31:13 - 00:32:28
As my co author says, if you step up to be a non executive director, for example, on a board of some kind, it's probably the only job in the organisation for which there is no formal training or qualification necessary. And that, of course, is also why your interactions are so important, because you have expertise, insight, views, lived experience, but you need to be able to contribute that constructively to the work of the board as a whole to the work of the organisation. And that's a fascinating activity with enormous potential, but it sometimes goes badly wrong.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:54 - 00:32:52
Yeah. And, you know, boards are comprised of people from many different backgrounds, organisations, skills, experience etc and I think they can be, from an external perspective, quite a scary prospect to go and do something. And when I encourage people to go and seek out any deeds or trusteeships or in this zone people are often like, oh, but it's really scary. And they're all these really senior people. And I'm like, yes, they're all people.They're all humans. No human in the world is good at everything. If they want you on that board, they want you because you're bringing something. You have a skill, a perspective, an understanding, maybe even just a lived experience that those people do not have. And that's an important part. And when you're on a board, it's no good sitting there, not saying anything, because that's not the purpose.

Kathryn Bishop 00:32:52 - 00:33:25
No, indeed, indeed. And part of the task of the chair and indeed other board members is to create the environment where everybody's voice can be heard. There will be a variety of views. Frankly, that's very important in a complicated 21st century world. But to be able to hear and acknowledge the different perspectives on issues that the organisation is facing is very important, and that's conversational talent. The chair can help, but it's also up to each of us.

Beth Stallwood 00:33:25 - 00:33:50
For anyone who's listening, who's thinking about it, I think you've got two people here. Be like, go and try. Put your application in. Your skills will be valued somewhere. Find something you're passionate about, find something you're interested in. Find something that aligns with your skills and see where you go from there, because the things it can bring you and the things that you can offer it have wonderful things to do.

Kathryn Bishop00:33:51 - 00:33:54
So start with a charity, start with a school, be a school governor.

Beth Stallwood00:33:55 - 00:34:32
There's so many different opportunities out there and loads of places you can look for them as well. And maybe we'll pop a couple of those places into the show notes as well so people can click on through. We will be some helpful board recruiters going on right now to get people into that volunteering space. I think the other thing to consider is often that people think it's not going to take up a huge amount of time and often it does but there are kind of limitations. You're not supposed to be acting like an employee when you're on a board. You're not supposed to be doing a full time job so there are some boundaries and stuff so make sure you understand those things as you go into it would be one of my suggestions as well.

Kathryn Bishop 00:34:32 - 00:34:45
Absolutely. And we talk about that in the book, the kind of non executive versus executive role, the importance of seeing where the boundary lies and sticking to it. There's various points in the book where we make reference to that.

Beth Stallwood 00:34:45 - 00:35:29
Which is important because it's not an executive role. You're not supposed to be doing the job. You're supposed to be helping. Think about it, talk about it, strategy, etc. Oh, such an interesting conversation. I love both of these side of things. With the career success, how do you get where you want to go? How do you line up all those right things, the right time, the right people, the right organisation, the right skills, etc. And that thinking about maybe boards as an opportunity to develop your career in whichever way you want to as well. So are you okay if I move us on to some quick fire questions? So first one, because I'm a bit of a book nerd, what book are you currently reading?

Kathryn Bishop 00:35:30 - 00:36:07
So I've always got multiple books on the go. Non fiction, fiction, the thing I read before I fall asleep at night, but the one I'm going to mention here is a book called The New Diary by Tristine Rainer. It's not new, it's been published for some considerable time but it's about the 11 different kinds of self reflective journal or diary and for someone who regards self reflection as a part of the fuel for career navigation and career success, I'm very much enjoying its eleven different kinds.

Beth Stallwood 00:36:07 - 00:36:23
I love that I can't even think of what the eleven different kinds would be. So I'm going to have to get in there and have a read. Love that. We'll put the link in that in the show notes as well. For you personally, what is always guaranteed to bring you a little bit of work joy?

Kathryn Bishop 00:36:24 - 00:36:55
I love those moments when I'm in a lecture theatre in the business school, or sometimes in a boardroom where I say something and you can see that the light bulb has gone on for someone, not because I've said something brilliant, but because something's happened for them that's made them think again about a problem they're dealing with. And you can see it in their face. It suddenly opens and clears or they might start writing something down. I love those light bulb moments. That's what keeps me going.

Beth Stallwood 00:36:55 - 00:37:17
And seeing them in other people. You talked about your light bulb moments that have happened through your career, seeing that happen for other people and being maybe the catalyst that helps get that direction going. Yeah, I too really enjoy that one. What is a piece of advice that you've been given in your career that you always find yourself coming back to?

Kathryn Bishop 00:37:20 - 00:38:20
One of the things that strategy is about is about prioritization and choice. That's why organisations think strategically, because there's only so much time and only so much resource. So one of the pieces of advice I most frequently use and come back to, possibly because I don't always manage to achieve it, is only do what only you can do. That is to say, there are loads of things on my to do list and some of them I am the only person who can do them because I'm the mother or because I've done it 15 times before, or because there's nobody else who wants to do it. But there are some things on my to do list where actually I'm really not the only person who can do it and a little bit of productive, respectful delegation or collaboration might be a much better strategy than just churning through the to do list. So only do what only you can do.

Beth Stallwood 00:38:21 - 00:39:02
That's a really great bit of advice and one that I imagine is an imperfect goal. What a great thing to work towards and know that it's not about perfection, it's about the progress of that. I know that I personally, in my business, I've been through a period of the last few years of learning how to partner with people, to do the things that I’m not so great at and learning how to delegate stuff to people who can get on with the things while I'm doing the things that I'm really good at. So only do what only you can do. It's a great little mantra to keep in our minds.

Kathryn Bishop 00:39:02 - 00:39:05
And a recipe for using your unique strengths, which the world needs.

Beth Stallwood 00:39:06 - 00:39:38
And if only you can do them and you're great at them and you love them and they bring you some joy, what a great way to spend most of your time. Even if we only get it 80%, that's better than nothing, right? And when it comes to thinking about making our own maps and thinking about where we want to get to, what's one, I mean, you've got nine different chapters of things that people could look at, but what's one that you would pick for our listeners? That's something they could go and do today, tomorrow, the next day that you think might help them.

Kathryn Bishop 00:39:40 - 00:40:50
So I was going to say to you that we should all experiment much more than we usually feel we have time to. So read something different, join a different kind of network, read a different newspaper one day, read a different trade journal so that you're opening up your mind to some opportunities that you might not have known existing. But of course, the trouble is that requires time, just a little bit of mental space. So the tiny little recommendation I would make is build yourself a to not do list. I have a list of things that I really don't do. I don't need to do them. I'm not doing them. Things like ironing, I don't need my clothes to be flat, Christmas cards. You don't need a piece of cardboard with a robin on for me to tell you that I'm thinking of you. I just don’t that. And I use the time created by my to not do list to do something different, to experiment, to open myself up to some new opportunities.

Beth Stallwood 00:40:51 - 00:41:02
That is such a good idea. And I don't know about anyone else, but my to do list is always full of stuff and things and actually thinking about I'm not going to do that.

Kathryn Bishop 00:41:02 - 00:41:06
Just acknowledge it to yourself and use the time for something better.

Beth Stallwood 00:41:06 - 00:41:33
Oh, I might start a to not do alongside my to do list. On a previous podcast, someone recommended doing a ta da list, which is all the things I've done and it's great to have that combination. So a third list to add to my listing. So, Kathryn, it's been amazing to speak to you today. If people are interested in finding out more about you and your work, which I'm sure they will be, where can they find out more about you and get in touch?

Kathryn Bishop 00:41:34 - 00:41:56
So I have a website, kathryn-bishop.com but let me encourage people to read my books. I wrote them both to be helpful, to be read, to hope that they will be useful for the reader and you can find them anywhere online or in brick.

Beth Stallwood 00:41:56 - 00:42:33
And what I will say, I'm working my way through the make your own map at the moment, I'm about halfway through and what I love, and if other people are into this is, there's lots of practical imagery and models and things to work through. There's bits to write stuff into, so I find it's a very practical guide. I haven't started on Board Talk yet, but there's lots of things to actually do so it feels like it's making progress as you work through it. So I would really highly recommend those as well and we will put a link to your website in the show notes as well so that people can pop on there and find out more about you.

Kathryn Bishop 00:42:33 - 00:42:34
Thank you.

Beth Stallwood 00:42:34 - 00:43:03
Thank you so much for being a wonderful guest today here on the WorkJoy Jam such an interesting thing to think about, and I'm certainly going to go away thinking about navigating our careers, thinking about how do we do some of that self reflection, how do we apply strategy models to ourselves. I'm definitely creating a to not do list and I'm going to have the mantra I'm going to write this up, only do what only you can do as well. So thank you very much for your time today.

Kathryn Bishop 00:43:03 - 00:43:07
I've enjoyed our conversation hugely and I hope the listeners do too.

Beth Stallwood 00:43:10 - 00:44:35
A huge thank you to Kathryn Bishop for joining me on today's episode. I have about a million notes written down and I'm going to pick a few things that really landed with me and actually align with a lot of the thinking around creating joy in your career. And that's around things like networking and shadowing and volunteering and making sure that you're making your own map. I often talk about this in relation to Dorothy and the Wizard of Oz, bear with me for a moment, is that we don't all have to follow the yellow brick road. We don't have to have a path that someone has preset or pre considered for us. We can create our own maps and we can really consider where it is that we want to go, how we want to head there and I am totally on board with Kathryn’s advice here of to build a to not do list of the things we're not going to do. So I am going away now with my pen and a piece of paper to write that list.

As always, I'd love you all to think about one thing that you might do differently, step into, think about as a result of listening to this podcast today and to keep those actions in mind, because little things really do add up over time. Remember, you can follow us on all the socials we’re @createworkjoy and if you fancy giving me a little email telling me something, asking me a question it's hello@createworkjoy.com. Speak to you soon.