Beth Stallwood 00:00:00 - 00:01:51
Hey there, I am Beth Stallwood, your host on the WorkJoy Jam podcast. In this episode, I am joined by Ruth Richards. Now, Ruth has spent many years working in communications and she's now a consultant who helps organisations and their people work together really, really well. And through our chat, we talk about this subject of how important our relationships are at work to our levels of work joy. How when they're great, they can be bringers of joy. How when they're terrible, they can be real bringers of work gloom. Yet it's something that we're not really trained for. I've never seen a job description that doesn’t involve wanting great teamwork. Yet how do we actually build that? What are the skills we need and how do we make that happen? I really enjoyed this conversation, thinking about that depth of relationship and how do we do more of it better, communicate better and work together better. I really hope you enjoy this episode.

Well, welcome to the WorkJoy Jam. I am very pleased today to be joined by the wonderful Ruth Richards and rather than me introduce Ruth, as usual, I'm going to hand over Ruth. Tell us a little bit about you, who you are and what you do.

Ruth Richards 00:01:52 - 00:02:26
So I help people work together more effectively. So I do that by doing some consultancy, some training, some coaching, facilitation. I look at the culture in an organization. I look at communication within teams and between individuals, and I look at the skills that people need to collaborate. Very interestingly, in recent years I've been doing all of that through the lens of hybrid working, which is fascinating. I'm sure we'll get into that later.

Beth Stallwood 00:02:26 - 00:03:07
Yeah, a whole big subject to talk about. A different way of doing working life, I think, in the hybrid world. And so interesting, isn't it like collaboration, getting people working well together, thinking about culture. I'm excited to dive into some of those areas because they are areas where we find a lot of people get a lot of joy from, but also can be real areas where things get tricky and sticky and icky and we don't know always how to handle those things. So we're going to go into that but before we do, could you tell us your career story and how it is you got to doing this thing that you do now because we're always fascinated about the route that people take to where they've got to so far?

Ruth Richards 00:03:08 - 00:04:20
Yeah, of course. So my background is that for about 16-17 years I worked in marketing and communications roles in the charity sector. So obviously wonderful work with a lot of purpose, but also a lot of change, a lot of challenges, a lot of different stakeholders and things to think about. So that was brilliant and I loved it. I was lucky enough to sort of get into quite senior roles. I had quite big teams, really enjoyed thinking about the team dynamics and how people were working together. So that was great but then a few years back, sort of coinciding with my second maternity leave, COVID came. I just felt like this was the time, really to think a bit differently, do something different. So, as I've always been fascinated by how people communicate with each other, how people interact with each other, how teams work when people are trying to come to an agreement about something. So, yeah, I trained as a coach and a facilitator and have just focused on that, really and as I said, it's been a very interesting time to do that.

Beth Stallwood 00:04:20 - 00:04:24
Yeah. And probably an interesting time to be on maternity leave with babies and things during Covid?

Ruth Richards 00:04:25 - 00:05:10
Do you know what I think? I would say it was lucky in a way, I feel very lucky that I didn't have to try and work while I was at home with children because having spoken to people who did that, it broke a lot of people, I think. And I would say, you know, I'm a massive fan of people working from home and hybrid working. I think it's brilliant. It allows people to live better lives really. Being able to work from home has changed my life and it's for the good of everyone I live with as well. So I feel I was quite lucky, though, that I didn't have to try and do that while homeschooling, looking after a baby? The thought of it is bringing me out, oh no.

Beth Stallwood 00:05:11 - 00:05:32
So, really fascinating and I'm really interested in this transition from marketing and comms, which, in my mind is communicating to people outside the organization, to looking at how people work together inside an organization. When did that fascination start about the inside the organization stuff?

Ruth Richards 00:05:32 - 00:07:27
I think it's so interesting, isn't it because I do see such a through line between what I used to do and what I do now and I think as a communicator, as a marketer, I was always interested in changing what people thought. And obviously, because I worked in the charity sector, a big part of what we were trying to do was to raise awareness and change how people thought about particular issues, and marketing and comms is an interesting department often in a lot of organizations, because you're right at the heart of everything. You have to work with everyone. You're a little bit of a service team. So you're trying to do what people want you to do, but you also have a strategic function where you're trying to say to people, actually, I don't want to do it like that, or we need to do this differently to fit with what our audiences want. So being that bridge between the audiences and the internal. So actually, as I got more senior, so much of my role was about that internal influencing and persuading and recognizing how much of my success was my team's success, not just mine, was built on that ability to kind of manage all those different things internally. So I just found it really interesting and I think as I've got older as well, I think there's something about recognizing that making a difference doesn't have to be on this massive scale all the time. Making a difference can be smaller scale and I think you touched on it just then, the difference that it makes for people when teams work well. I think there's a stat that something like 92% of people say their workplace stress is related to team dynamics. So if you could just get that stuff right, the number of happier people you would have. So, yes, I've always been interested in people and how people think and how you can communicate with people to connect with them.

Beth Stallwood 00:07:27 - 00:08:06
So many things to talk about. One of the things I just wanted to recognize here is this idea that you obviously did work with purpose, like the charity sector. The purpose is inbuilt into the organization. We don't have to search for it. We don't seek it out. You know, there's many, many big corporate organizations spending lots of money trying to work out a purpose. But when you work in the charity sector, the purpose is there. It's already there. But actually, this idea that we can all have smaller purposes and it doesn't have to be these big things. And there are, I like to think of them as micro purposes, the little things that inspire us, that get us excited about our work, can be there and can be really, really important and make a massive difference to everybody.

Ruth Richards 00:08:06 - 00:08:21
I love that. Micro purposes, I think that's so true. And I think recognizing that we can all change someone's day or change someone's feels about turning up to work is huge.

Beth Stallwood 00:08:22 - 00:09:02
So tell me a little bit more about the team dynamics, getting people working together, getting collaboration and obviously that stat is amazing, but I'm not surprised. There are so many stats out there, you know, you leave people in the business not the business, you leave your manager, the relationships you have make or break your day when you're in a working environment, and I think especially now, even, you know, with all the hybrid stuff and working from home, etc, the ability to work with other people is such a core skill for all of us. Yet if I reflect on my personal education, no one's ever taught me how to do that, not once.

Ruth Richards 00:09:03 - 00:10:33
Yeah, it's so true and I think there's a coaching exercise I sometimes do with people where we look back on highlights of their working life to kind of pull out what gets them going and so often they'll be talking about projects or things they've worked on, and it's never like, the outcome that they reflect on. It's always, oh, that was such a good time because it felt like everyone was working together. So, yes, it has the negative impacts if things don't work well but I think most of us, when we look back on our highlights of our career, it's often related to, like, when things felt really good and everyone was working together and that shared purpose piece that you talked about. So I think it's really interesting and that it is a skill. I think one thing that frustrates me about the conversations about hybrid is that there's a lot of focus on tools all the time. Like, you know, what's the right tool to make hybrid work? And it's absolutely skills that people need to make this stuff work well, it's communication skills, influencing skills, it’s how to build rapport and build trust with people. Those are all skills that can be learned but I do think there's something and I don't know for you, Beth, but, like, when I learned that stuff early in my career, I kind of learned it by osmosis, by watching people, by seeing people do it, by looking at the people in the office who seem to have a lot of sway and seeing what they did. So I think there's a danger that we're not teaching people by osmosis anymore. So we've got to be really explicit and say, you need to come and learn these skills.

Beth Stallwood 00:10:34 - 00:11:51
Yeah and I think that's so interesting, isn't it? About the people now who are starting work, never really going into an office, never having that situation and I think this is one of the reasons why hybrid is hard. I think it's brilliant and I think it has so much potential. I'm definitely waving the flag for working from home, hybrid working, working in a more flexible way for everybody, I think is better. But it is hard, I think, for people to start working that way, people who've never had it any other way, people who started and their first day is on Zoom calls. And for me, it just feels really strange. I have to say I think I'd find that really, really hard and we don't think of the skills, you're right. With so many things around people, everyone's like, well, what's the right technology and what's the right platform or what are the right tools? And I'm like, how about we start with how we have these conversations and what our behaviours are and how do we make those things work for us? People often think that certain people can build rapport, certain people are good at it, and that it's not a skill, that it's more of a kind of innate talent. And I don't believe that's true. So I'd love to know from you, how do you help people understand or work out how they can do some of those things? Have you got some tips for us?

Ruth Richards 00:11:52 - 00:13:03
I think it's interesting, isn't it because I think a lot of people, I think maybe it comes more naturally to some people than others, but it's absolutely something that we can all do. I often talk to people about to build rapport and build trust, the main thing is to not be just interested in yourself. I think it comes from a genuine interest in other people and what other people are doing. And from that flows all the rapport building skills that we might know about, which is sort of listening, engaging, reflecting back to people what they've said. All of those things are easy if you are genuinely interested in what they're saying. And, you know, I used to sometimes say to people, strategically it's so useful to be interested in what people are saying. If you are a head of department, it's very useful to know and understand what your peers are doing. So for me, that's the main thing, is that you have to be focused on the bigger picture. You have to be focused on what are we all trying to do together, what is our purpose.

Beth Stallwood 00:13:03 - 00:13:29
And actually, if we're interested in what other people are doing and where we're going, we'll find out all those connection points, won't we? We'll find out where we're interested in the same things, or where we've got some similarity in our lives beyond work or, you know, asking questions, finding out more, being interested. And I love the way they use the word genuinely there because I also have been in that world where people pretend to be interested and don't listen to a word you say.

Ruth Richards 00:13:30 - 00:14:21
Yeah, I think we've all worked with those people as well. But we know, don't we? I think as human beings, we know. So one of the things I talk about when I do talks is, so we know that, like homo sapiens, how did we take over the world? Why are we the most successful species? And it's not because we're stronger or faster than anyone else, or probably even because we're any smarter than a lot of other species, even the other human species. We are really good at collaborating and we're really good at forming bonds, and we're really good at working as a group and finding a shared understanding. And so all of that stuff is kind of innate in all of us. And, yeah, I think when we meet someone who goes against that, it really jars. But when someone is genuinely interested in working well with us, we feel it and it lifts you and you just think, yes, this is going to be fun.

Beth Stallwood 00:14:24 - 00:15:36
It's a really good point you put there about fun. And obviously I'm all about work joy We want people to have more joy at work, and fun is one of the ways that you can have joy. Now, some people are hugely against anything that I would call organized fun, but actually the fun that comes from being with people and the fun that comes from working on stuff together. And I sometimes think we associate fun with everything being good and I'd love to just bust a myth there is that some of the best times I've had at work have been when the crisis has happened. You know, I'm going to swear now, so pause if you don't like it, when this shit hits the fan and people gather together, because there is this single purpose. We've got to solve a problem, we've got to fix an issue. We've got to tidy up something that we broke, whatever it is, those times can be really hard and really fun. It doesn't have to be fun and good all the time. It could be fun and difficult. It could be fun and interesting. It could be fun and frustrating. But if we're looking for the one side of it going to work, it's within what we do, finding the ways of making it better by working together.

Ruth Richards 00:15:37 - 00:16:10
Yeah, I think that's so true, isn't it? There's that energy that comes from it. I mean, I'm not you. I always used to quite like a crisis, like that purpose and everyone coming together and it felt there was energy to it and I think, yeah, again, if you look at the types of workforces that tend to use humour and black humour the most, you know, NHS organisations that tend to have a lot of black humour running around because it's a way of bonding and lightening and bringing some jot into it.

Beth Stallwood 00:16:10 - 00:16:54
The whole kind of like, if you don't laugh, you'll cry situation and being able to do that together is a really important thing. So tell us a bit more about collaboration. It's talked about like working, building rapport, collaborating. I would say out of 100 people I talked to in the last year, 90 of them are probably having challenges with getting collaboration, working properly. And I think, tell me if you think I'm wrong here, I'm going to give an opinion. I have no evidence support this, it's just an opinion. I think hybrid is being used as an excuse to say that collaboration isn't good and I think collaboration was bad before hybrid existed.

Ruth Richards 00:16:54 - 00:17:51
I think you are probably right. Again, one of the things I talk to people about is that this stuff is not, and it kind of frustrates me as you hear people blaming the senior leadership or blaming the leadership team of all the culture's rubbish. We don't work with other teams and I think what hybrid does is it means that we really have to take responsibility ourselves for how we work. You've not got your boss sitting next to you at the next desk along now keeping an eye on you. So if you want to work in a collaborative way, you've got to take responsibility for that and work out how you're going to do it. So I do think hybrid has made it less instinctive for people or harder to track, or certainly easier for people who might want to opt out of it to opt out of it to. But you're right, it's always been something that has challenged.

Beth Stallwood 00:17:52 - 00:19:14
I think it challenges workplaces and I am a big believer in personal responsibility for changing the stuff that isn't working for you. And if anyone says to me, oh, the culture's rubbish, I'm like, well, what are you doing to influence the culture? Because the culture isn't set by one person, it's set by everybody in the organization. So if you want more collaboration, you're going to have to do some stuff to be more collaborative. Especially if you are in a leadership role. You do have a responsibility there, but you're not the only person who can make that happen, and we can't look to our leaders and expect them to be brilliant at absolutely everything, because they are, after all, human beings. And I say it, but organizations don't actually exist. They're a figment of our imagination. They're not a person. They don't make decisions. It's the people within it that make things happen. So I think you're right. The hybrid factor, one of the things I think it removes is the accidental conversation. Like the corridor conversation, the what the Americans call it, the water cooler conversation. The, oh, I'm just bumping into you and I remember I needed to say something to you and that doesn't happen. So often when you're trying to just zoom people, because there'll be formal meetings and structure and process, and I think that's the missing bit. And I've always wondered, how do we build more of that non formal, more accidental conversation into the hybrid world? I'd love to know if you've got any advice on that.

Ruth Richards 00:19:14 - 00:19:24
I think you're right. I always remember it was the queue for the microwave at lunch, but that doesn't sound as nice as the water cooler moment.

Beth Stallwood 00:19:26 - 00:19:28
The microwave moment.

Ruth Richards 00:19:28 - 00:21:11
The microwave moment. I think you're right. It is the people that you maybe don't work with, but you sort of see them every day and you say hello. So when you need to go to talk to them about something, they sort of know you a bit already. I've seen different organizations do different things, so some will do kind of an online random. You'll randomly be half an hour a week randomly matched with someone to go and have a coffee with online. One organization I work with has sort of said, if you're in the office, there's this kind of 3 o’clock tea break, so everyone is encouraged to come along to the kitchen cafe area and stop for half an hour and chat. I think there is definitely something that a lot of organizations are missing about how they use office time to let people do that and make people do that a little bit. But I think it's hard. I think that is the hardest thing. I think there's also, as a follow on from that accidental conversation, the two things that are related that are difficult in hybrid, are the kind of instantaneous feedback that doesn't feel like a big deal, but it's just looking over someone's shoulder and going, oh, can you tweet that? Or actually, in that meeting, you did really well. And I think the other thing that we need to really think about how we do it is that support piece. Like, I remember, if someone was having a tough time in my team as a manager, I could normally see it because I was in the office with them and I could take them into a room and go, are you okay? Or you'd do that for your peers maybe if they saw it. And I think those kind of serendipity conversations are the things that we miss in hybrid.

Beth Stallwood 00:21:12 - 00:23:22
And it's really hard, actually, especially with cameras on, cameras off. What's going on? To know if someone's not saying there's something up, it's really hard to notice in the hybrid world there's something going on and that calls for more regular conversations, check ins, less surface level conversations, better mental health support. All of that stuff is required there and I'm a big believer in the power of feedback. And I think you're right, it's not so easy to do that because also everything's on, like shared documents, isn't it? And people are writing comments, and the minute you go from writing to speaking to somebody, it always sounds more formal and more like you're in trouble. So that's a really big challenge. Or managers especially on how to do some of those things where you can't necessarily notice, but raising your awareness of where people are at, what they're doing and finding ways to have those conversations, it's also making me really think about some older fashioned work practices that maybe we need to reinvigorate. So if you think about manufacturing plants, etc, or even some other industries that used to always have a, the whistle goes, lunch break and everyone goes to lunch together. Everyone started together, everyone went to lunch together, everyone had their tea break together .Even things like back in the day, this was before my time, and I really am sad I didn't get one. You know, the tea ladies coming round with the little trolley and kind of talking to you and communicating and things. And I wonder if the digital world, not just the hybrid world, we've gone way past that now in the digital world with people sitting at desks, computers, etc and thats no longer being necessary. The whole point in manufacturing was you turned the machines off for that hour and everyone goes to lunch and then the machines go back on. So as a matter of fact, it had a purpose that was beyond that. But the kind of accidental result of that was probably better teamwork, because everyone's having conversations and doing stuff that isn't work together.

Ruth Richards 00:23:23 - 00:24:45
Yeah, that's really interesting, isn't it? Even companies that sort of say, oh, don't put meetings over lunch, even the ones that manage to do that, which so many don't, people are still going to sit in their own houses having lunch or go off. Even like the Friday night down the pub. Not to make assumptions, but when I was in my twenties, going to the pub on a Friday after work for a drink or two was a huge part of how you got to know people. And I'm not saying it should be like that. That's not necessarily great for everyone. That's not a great way to encourage diversity. But, yeah, some of those rituals, we've kind of lost something. There was a piece of research that said, like, way back in the seventies called the Allen Curve, where they sort of looked at how often you communicated with people based on how closely you sat with them. Have you seen that one? And there's that kind of about 8 meters where people suddenly would be chatting to each other all the time. And that's interesting because how does that apply now. They say it was a stat that, like, people who work from home spend 48% less time talking to people than they would if they were in the office. So, yeah, I like that. So rituals that can get that back might be the way to go.

Beth Stallwood 00:24:45 - 00:25:38
Like the term, the ritual thing is a really interesting one, isn't it? Because you can build it in, you can build a ritual into your culture, you can talk about it, you can do something with it. It comes with structure and purpose and all the kind of things that make people want to do stuff. And I, by the way, anyone listening, I am not suggesting that everyone should have a forced lunch break where they all have to sit together, because quite frankly, that would be awful, too. Ad I don't think that’s necessarily the right ritual, it's not necessarily the right thing for the world we live in now but the thing I wrote down while you were talking is the work that happens in the sidelines. It doesn't happen in the main conversational area. It doesn't happen necessarily in the meetings or the Zoom calls or whatever. That’s the thing I think you lose with working from home and some of the tech related stuff that.

Ruth Richards 00:25:38 - 00:26:59
We do, I think you're right. I think there's such a focus on productivity, and a lot of the conversations about people working from home are focused on productivity and output. And I think, you know, sometimes people feel that's what they're being judged on as well. And all this stuff, this relationship building, this kind of chatting without an agenda, collaborating, exploring, is time consuming. So there also needs to be, whether it's a ritual or just permission, I guess, that this stuff is your work and it does matter. I remember I used to have with my opposite numbers in other departments, like once a month we'd go and have a coffee together, which, when you've got a really busy day and two reports to write and your KPI's to do for a board meeting can feel like a… but because it was in the diary we went and did it. And I always think I used to get so much benefit from that hour. It wasn't just a nice social thing. It was when there were later issues, when things came up, they were always resolved so much more quickly because we had built a relationship and we had a forum where we could bring that stuff if there were issues between the teams or with the work. So I think there's something about that mental shift of like, this is part of your job and this is worth doing and it's worth spending time on.

Beth Stallwood 00:27:00 - 00:27:11
It's so funny because I literally wrote on LinkedIn this morning about so many people have been saying, I've been in so many meetings, I haven't had any time to do my work. And I was like, but meeting is part of your work.

Ruth Richards 00:27:11 - 00:27:14
The more senior you are, the more meetings are part of your work.

Beth Stallwood 00:27:14 - 00:28:30
And actually, if we need to reframe that, because if you don't see that as your work, then you're probably not as engaged with them, you're probably not as interested, you're probably not as focused on them. You're probably trying to do all the other stuff, but not really engaging in the meeting. Then there's a bigger question of should you even be in the meeting or should it even be a meeting? There's a whole thing around thing that side of stuff but I also think as humans, we have a really weird relationship with time when it comes to work. So we will do anything to save time today to make us more productive right now in this moment. Like work through lunch, proven not helpful. Like work in the evenings, proven not good for our mental health or long term well being, which is not good for work. I'm going to cancel all the stuff that brings me any joy. I'm just going to do the stuff that is productive. Not good for us, not good for business. The, oh, hang on a minute, that's just a conversation with somebody, so I won't bother with that and then we don't have a relationship in three months in the future when whatever the big decision is relies on our relationship. We haven't invested the time in the right place. So there's something about where we see the investment and doing more upfront for that to make everything else easier in the future. But our brains can't really handle it. Well, I know lots of people can't.

Ruth Richards 00:28:30 - 00:28:52
You and I were talking about crises, and I think crises were fun because I was working with a group of people who I knew and trusted and we had a lot of shortcuts in terms of how we could talk about things. Those crises were much easier to manage and over a lot quicker because of all the time and effort that had gone into building the relationships beforehand.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:52 - 00:30:06
So it's also an interesting one and I'm sitting here considering my time in offices and kind of my early career and how you learn stuff and you called it learning by osmosis, which I think is really great, but also learning through the people that you work with and having those really deep, supportive relationships that you build when you sit next to somebody, when you do work together, when you have the same or similar job as somebody else, and maybe you're at a similar point in your career or maybe not. And how I'm sitting here thinking how different it would be to not be doing that all the time. I think if you were to add it up, you spend more waking hours with the people you work with when you're in an office than you ever did with anyone you chose to spend time with. And this morning I've got back from a coffee which was with a friend, a friend I met at work 20 something years ago, and we sat next to each other and we've been like best buds ever since. And that's a really interesting thing is, does that happen anymore? I'd be really interested to know, do people get their work BFF's anymore?

Ruth Richards 00:30:07 - 00:30:59
See, I'm fascinated by this because I just think I have made real, genuine friendships at work. They have been often the thing that has made a job as enjoyable as it has been for me, they've shaped who I am and how I work and you learn so much from those people. I think where you've got people who worked together before the pandemic, then it carries on and they're the ones that may be WhatsApp’ing each other on the side in meetings or whatever. So I think, you know, relationships that were pre existing survive but I do wonder if you're coming into the workforce now do youreally make an effort to build a relationship like that? We didn't really have to make an effort.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:00 - 00:31:08
I didn't even try. There was no trying involved. I didn't have to schedule a meeting or consider trying to build a relationship. It just happened.

Ruth Richards 00:31:08 - 00:31:12
Whereas now you probably almost have to go to someone and go, will you be my friend?

Beth Stallwood 00:31:12 - 00:31:23
Which is the worst way to get a new friend. Hi, Ruth. Will you be my best friend at work? Probably not. Weird.

Ruth Richards 00:31:23 - 00:31:24
Of course I will.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:25 - 00:32:13
But I think it's Dallup, isn't it - the research from Gallup always asks the question, do you have a best friend at work and how the impact of having somebody who's got your back, like a comrade in arms who is there with you throughout it. I mean, I think about all my different jobs and I have people now, and I haven't worked in an organization as an employee for a number of years now, but I have people from all of my different jobs who I count as the best friends I had at work. Some are bosses, some were, you know, people who reported into me. And afterwards, you still have that friendship because the friendship outlasts the job. Yeah, but the friendship within the job made all of those things possible and exciting and interesting and fun along the way. I'm totally going to put this out there. By the way, anyone listening onto as a social question, I want to know, do people still have best friends at work?

Ruth Richards 00:32:14 - 00:32:35
Because it makes sense if you think about it, like, you're probably going to end up working in similar roles to people you have stuff in common with, they're not random people. If you've chosen to go and do similar roles in similar types of organisations, then you're going to have a lot in common. I mean, people used to marry people they work with, didn't they used to have office romances? I'm sure you don't get office romances anymore.

Beth Stallwood 00:32:35 - 00:32:38
I think they're probably not couth anymore, are they?

Ruth Richards 00:32:40 - 00:32:56
I think they were dying off once Internet dating started. But you know, it makes perfect sense really when you think about it that, interestingly, a lot of my friends from university do the same sort of roles as well because I think if you're, you know, it makes perfect sense that you'd be friendly with people.
Beth Stallwood 00:32:56 - 00:33:14
If you're interested in a specific subject and you make that subject your career and you're interested in a particular type of organization, like you were interested in purpose led charity organizations. So you then gather around people who have similar interest backgrounds, experience to you and then it's very easy to be friends with people who have those things.

Ruth Richards 00:33:14 - 00:33:26
Yeah. So it makes perfect sense. So, yeah, I think it would be really sad if, and I would be really interested in if you put that out there, the responses you get, because I think it would be a sad thing to lose those kind of friendships that come from work.

Beth Stallwood 00:33:26 - 00:34:07
I agree. I think it could be a really sad thing and also I don't think it's just an individual benefit that you get from people having those deep relationships at work. So if we think about, is this just a nice to have, I don't think so. I think it's a win win for the organization and now, I'm going completely down a rabbit hole for a moment and then I'll drag myself back out, is we have a big challenge about mental health at work. And now I'm doing a related thing, is one of our big challenges about mental health at work that people don't have that depth of relationship and friendship at work anymore? Is that a contributing factor?

Ruth Richards 00:34:08 - 00:35:13
I think it's interesting, isn't it? Because I think it was the Mental Health Foundation that did a survey a few years back that said 1 in 5 people said they felt lonely at work, but I think that 18 to 24 year olds were twice as likely to feel lonely. So there was definitely something there. So when I was in the charity sector, I worked for mental health charities and, you know, I was at Mind when we started doing a lot of the work around workforce well being and looking at what made people happy at work, which is obviously all that you do. But if you look at the resilience, I think the Roffey Park Resilience Wheel looks at the things that build our resilience and a big one of those is about connections and networks and feeling like you've got people around you and different people who can support you with different things. So I think, even if you've got the most wonderful partner at home, you've got family, you've got friends, there's still a need for feeling like someone at work cares about you.

Beth Stallwood 00:35:13 - 00:35:20
And not just as someone who produces something, as somebody who is a human being.

Ruth Richards 00:35:20 - 00:35:31
Yeah, yeah. You want to feel like if you had a moment in the office that you needed to have a little cry, that you had someone that you could go to.

Beth Stallwood 00:35:35 - 00:36:00
It matters to people because real life stuff that happens doesn't just happen outside of work. You're still a human being when you go into work. It makes me really sad hearing that 18 to 24 year olds are twice as likely to feel lonely at work because that's such in your formative years of work and understanding how to do stuff and knowing where to go. I feel really sad about that. Really sad about it.

Ruth Richards 00:36:00 - 00:36:04
It kind of breaks my heart because I just think that was probably the time when I felt least lonely at work. Because you know, I was in a fairly junior role, didn't have a lot of responsibility. That was the time that I was really enjoying making connections with people and the office chat and, you know, it should be lonelier at the top, surely.

Beth Stallwood 00:36:20 - 00:37:39
Yeah, maybe it's not the same anymore. And I think that of all the things we've talked about today, that is a sad and shocking stat. And in fact, even just 1 in 5 people feeling lonely at work is a really hard one to swallow. And I think there's some stuff that we can do. So I'm always big on what's the individual responsibility here, like, reaching out to people, making connections with people, you know, talking to people. And if you're not getting that in your organization, your wider network is probably somewhere where you can get more of that. And I'm always a big fan of go out and meet people who are in the same industry as you. Go and find and have some conversations with people. One of my work related best friends, I suppose, we've never worked together. We met in a lift on going to a conference where we were both running late and we've been friends ever since. The act of going and connecting with people is usually a helpful thing. Now, everyone does that differently. I'm an extroverted person. I'm quite happy to go and talk to people. Some people do that in a different way. But finding your way of having a community around you, of having a squad of people who can support you, who can enable you, whether that's in your workplace or beyond, is going to be a good thing for you and your career and for the organization.

Ruth Richards 00:37:39 - 00:38:18
Yes, definitely and also, you know, you said before, you feel like it's awkward to say to someone, please be my friend but I think, again, that point of, like, humans are sort of social animals. Some of them are more extroverted than others but we all need and want connection, and we all need and want connection in all areas of our life. So, yeah, other people you work with are probably craving it and if it's not there in your culture, then other people are probably craving it, too. So even just saying to someone, oh, do you know what, do you want to jump on a online call and have a coffee together first thing in the morning? No one's going to say no.

Beth Stallwood 00:38:18 - 00:38:44
I mean, yeah, I think you just want to have a coffee. I also think asking people about what motivates them or finding out more about their lives is always going to be a good thing. And you don't have to start with, will you be my new best friend? You start with your, do you fancy a coffee? You start with, can we chat about this? You can you start with, oh, I really admired this thing that you did in that meeting. Tell me more about how you do that and then you get the more learning side of things into the world as well.

Beth Stallwood 00:38:44 - 00:38:51
Amazing. Right, we've been talking for quite a long time so I'm going to have to move us on to our first quickfire questions. Are you ready, Ruth?

Ruth Richards 00:38:51 - 00:38:52
No, no.

Beth Stallwood 00:38:54 - 00:39:02
They're not that hard. I'm sure you'll be fine. Okay. And first question for you is, what book are you currently reading?

Ruth Richards 00:39:03 - 00:39:34
I'm currently reading, I'll tell you the truth, I was reading The Running Grave last week, and it was so tense that I kind of had to, now I've finished it, I needed something different. So I'm reading, I think it's called The Power of Moments by Chip and Dan Heath. It's really interesting. It’s about the importance of recognizing and holding moments in the life. So, you know, whether that's your first day at work, letting go of something. So I'm only about a third of the way in, but it's really interesting thinking about it.

Beth Stallwood 00:39:34 - 00:39:36
I've read a different book by them. Switch.

Ruth Richards 00:39:36 - 00:39:47
Yeah, switch. Yes. I've read a couple of those because they're kind of comms classics but this one's slightly different and really interesting.

Beth Stallwood 00:39:47 - 00:39:57
It sounds great. Love the idea of that one. For you personally, this is the second question, what is always guaranteed to bring you some work joy?

Ruth Richards 00:39:58 - 00:40:22
I think people I just enjoy. I'm a real EN on the Myers Briggs, so to be with one or two other people, bouncing ideas around, creating stuff is what always brings me loads of work joy. And now that I work on my own, like having to make the effort to go out and find that I do, because it's really worth it.

Beth Stallwood 00:40:22 - 00:40:45
And even there, there's even a purpose there because creating stuff together is the purpose. It's not just for the sake of it., there's some kind of micro purpose. What is the best bit of advice that you have had from someone else that you always find yourself coming back to?

Ruth Richards 00:40:49 - 00:41:41
I remember the first bit of advice I got at work from my first manager, who was a brilliant man, very old fashioned, and said, oh, most important person you can make friends with at an organization is the CEO's PA. Make sure they're your friend and you'll go far. I was like, okay, so that was interesting. But on a serious note, and a couple of friends had said this to me because I need reminding of it quite often, enough is enough. Sometimes enough is good enough and we just spoke earlier about, you know, it's wonderful to have a purpose and be trying to change the world, but changing your world is enough. So a kind of sense of good enough is good enough, as long as you're making a difference in your little bit of the world, you don't have to do everything.

Beth Stallwood 00:41:41 - 00:41:45
You don't have to be everything to everybody. You don't have to be perfect. It's always a good one.

Ruth Richards 00:41:46 - 00:41:48
Yes, good enough is good enough.

Beth Stallwood 00:41:48 - 00:42:00
I don't necessarily disagree with the old boss's advice about the CEO's PA. I think, people say, but I wouldn't necessarily limit it to PAs, people make friends with people who are well connected in the organisation.

Ruth Richards 00:42:00 - 00:42:20
Yeah I think that's what he was getting at. And I think, to be fair, he was my first proper manager, my first proper job and he really said to me, the most important thing you can do is make relationships. He used to sort of walk around the building every day and stop to chat to people. And I just think, actually, you know, there was a lot to be said for that.

Beth Stallwood 00:42:20 - 00:42:27
Yeah, there is a theory of management, isn't there, called theory of management? By walking around, wandering around and seeing what's going on kind of works.

Ruth Richards 00:42:30 - 00:42:32
How do you recreate that in hybrid?

Beth Stallwood 00:42:32 - 00:42:59
I don't know, like, dropping into everyone's Zoom meetings. It would be weird, wouldn't it? Yeah, I'm going to have to think on that one. And what is one little thing you would recommend that our audience did today, tomorrow, the next day, so tiny things, that would help them in the sense of connecting, collaborating, etc.

Ruth Richards 00:43:00 - 00:43:35
I think when you go into a meeting, an online meeting, just sort of taking the time to go, oh, hi, how are you? Like, you know, we did before we started recording. How's your week going? How's your weekend? Got anything nice coming up? I think those little couple of minutes of chit chat are massively overlooked. So there are really easy ways to just start building it in and if you're running a meeting with a few people, just getting everyone to check in and say how they're feeling today, we’ll be much more likely to contribute as the meeting goes on.

Beth Stallwood 00:43:35 - 00:43:42
So do the human bit first. Not just like, let's get down to business.

Ruth Richards 00:43:43 - 00:43:55
Yeah and again, I think, you know, sometimes when you were sitting in a room waiting for everyone to kind of file in, you did that. You had to fill the time. Whereas sometimes you go into a Zoom meeting, it's like, right, here's the agenda. Let's go.

Beth Stallwood 00:43:55 - 00:43:59
Yeah, yeah. Human first is usually a good way to go, isn't it?

Ruth Richards 00:43:59 - 00:44:00
As a general rule.

Beth Stallwood 00:44:00 - 00:44:03
As a general rule, I'm not sure there's many situations where that wouldn't work.

Ruth Richards 00:44:03 - 00:44:04
No.

Beth Stallwood 00:44:05 - 00:44:12
Amazing. Right, final question for me. Where can people find out more about you and your work and what you do?

Ruth Richards 00:44:13 - 00:44:34
Well, I'm on LinkedIn, so please send me a connection request. I’m there just as Ruth Richards and I also have a website, which is www.ruthkrichards.co.uk where I've got more information and you can sign up for my newsletter, where I try, I share regular kind of tips and tools in this area.

Beth Stallwood 00:44:35 - 00:45:19
Fantastic. And what we will do is we'll put those in the show notes as well so people can click straight on through. Ruth, it's been great talk talking to you today. I think this question of collaboration, how we do it in hybrid, is an ongoing challenge for all of us, and it's great to hear some thinking around it and how we build in those more human connections, the more moments for the accidental stuff, but doing it online as well as doing it in person and the question of rituals is going to sit with me, I think, for little while of what are the rituals that would work in the new world to help us do some of those things. So thank you so much for being on the WorkJoy Jam today.

Ruth Richards 00:45:19 - 00:45:21
Thank you so much for having me. It's been fun.

Beth Stallwood 00:45:27 - 00:46:59
A huge thank you to Ruth for joining me on today's Workjoy Jam podcast. Such interesting things to consider. I think one thing that's really in my mind after today is in this hybrid world that we're living in, where teams aren't always working together in person, even if they're working together online. How do we build those really, really strong relationships? How do we get those, what we were calling, work BFF's? The best friends at work when the relationship starts differently or continues differently, or has never been that way for some people in organisations right now. And I think that's one that's going to stick in my mind for quite some time because there is no obvious answer for that one maybe, is that we don't need them, but maybe we do. And if we do, how do we help build those relationships in a different way to perhaps how we built them when I was first starting out in the corporate world 20 years ago. So I don’t have an answer for you, but it's one that's definitely landed in my mind as something to keep pondering on.

As always, I'd love you to have a think about what's one thought, one action, one small thing that you might do as a result of listening to this podcast today. Remember that you can keep in touch with us on all the socials @createworkjoy, we’re Beth Stallwood on LinkedIn in. We would love to hear more from you and get your feedback and you can always drop me a line hello@createworkjoy.com.