Beth Stallwood 00:00:59 - 00:01:54
Hi there. I am Beth Stallwood, host of the Workjoy Jam podcast. In today's episode I am joined by Em Stroud. In my opinion, Em has the best and most unique job title of any of the 70 something guests we have had on the WorkJoy Jam and their job title is Corporate Clown Coach. Listen to that again, Corporate Clown Coach. I don't think I've ever heard that before. I am pretty confident I will never hear that again as a job title and I think it's testament to the work that Em does around bringing joy and fun and interesting things and play into the workplace. And for some of you that might feel a little bit uncomfortable, it can be a little bit like, oh, organised fun sounds awful. And do you know what? I kind of agree. Organised fun is sometimes not fun. But actually, when you look at what can happen when people, grown ups, remember that play is important, when we don't take ourselves too seriously, even though we take what we're doing really seriously, the impact that that can have, and I am fully on board with this as a concept, is incredible. So I hope you enjoy this conversation as much as I did having it.

Beth Stallwood 00:02:01 - 00:02:27
Welcome to the Work Joy Jam podcast. Today I am joined by the wonderful Em Stroud. I have been following Em for a while on LinkedIn, and then I was like, she really needs to come on the WorkJoy jam. So I basically encouraged her and made her come on here today. So thank you very much for coming on. Can you tell us a little bit about yourself, who you are and what you do?

Em Stroud 00:02:27 - 00:03:47
I mean, I can so that's always a good start when you meet individuals. Well, firstly, thank you very much for having me on. Thanks for coming. Lovely to be here. I'm very excited. A little bit about me. I 'm indeed called Em Stroud and some people would know me as the Corporate Clown Coach because I work with large corporates and I am indeed a clown and I have been coaching people for, gosh, quite a long time. I look really young, but, yeah, quite a long time. I'm also the spark of Laugh Think Play, which is our new global movement, and we want to get a billion adults laughing, thinking and playing so that they can feel better. I am indeed a clown, think theatre clown, so more sort of shakespearean fool and the court jester. And you get the idea of the kind of clown that I am. I'm a performer, done shows off the West End, Edinburgh Festival, written a book called Lessons from a Clown, currently writing my second book, and in essence, my whole purpose and reason to, well, really, let's face it, exist is to make sure that people remember that actually, when you laugh more and when you think more with kindness and you play more, you're going to feel better. And if you feel better, lo and behold, you're going to probably perform better and your life will just generally be, let's use the word, better. I do that in lots of different ways. I also have an 11-year old son, a dog called Charlie, and I'm getting married in about two weeks time. Is that enough about me?

Beth Stallwood 00:03:47 - 00:04:21
That's a wonderful introduction. Thank you so much Em, for such a great introduction. And as people were listening to that, I'm thinking they're thinking, ah, okay, this is where it all links to WorkJoy, and how we can laugh, think, play, how we can use fun at work and see what we can do. So I'm really excited to dive into this. My biggest question I've got on my mind to start with is how do you become a corporate clown coach? Because it wasn't on any, I can tell you now, it wasn't on any careers advice that I ever got, because if it was, I'd probably be one.

Em Stroud 00:04:21 - 00:05:34
Yes, indeed. So I learned a word when I was working with this amazing PR woman called Sophie. It's a moniker, which I was like, I don't know what a moniker is, but apparently a moniker is a journalistic term. So in three words or less, people would get an idea of who you are. So how did I become it? Well, about 2025 years ago, I realized that I was as fascinated with the world of performing as I was with the world of business. And so if for your listeners that can't see us, if you imagine one hand going up and then my head being in the middle and then my other hand going up, where I sit, where my head is, is exactly where I'm in the middle between performing and business. And I've spent 20+ years working with various senior people at large corporates and helping them have more fun, have more impact, tell their stories, a various different kind of suite of different interventions and learning stuff that I've done. And I started as a clown way back when I was at Uni, and I actually went to Italy and studied commedia dell'arte, which is where pantomime comes from, to kind of give you the branding of what it was. And maybe, I think it was about 6 or 7 years ago, time is so weird because of COVID I'm not entirely sure.

Beth Stallwood 00:05:34 - 00:05:36
Who knows the numbers. We're not going to check them up. .

Em Stroud 00:05:36 - 00:05:41
We're not going to be doing, like, oh, actually, it was 8.2 years ago. Okay, awkward. Sorry.

Beth Stallwood 00:05:41 - 00:05:42
None of that.

Em Stroud 00:05:42 - 00:06:53
I reconnected with clowning and, you know when you've been looking at a website for ages and you go, I want to go and do that, but you're quite scared and you want to go and do that, but you're quite scared. So I’d been improvising and doing shows, and I'd done my second one woman show just off the West End, and I kept going back to this clown teacher, and there's basically four top clowns in the world, and one happens to be a small Brazilian woman. Now, for me to say small is saying something, because I'm 5ft 2.5”, so she really is tiny. And I just was like, I want to go and work with De Castro. I want to go and work with De Castro. And I did and that shift and taking that step actually helped all of the different puzzles of my sort of personal development, my self development, all of the coaching stuff that I've done, all the performing things and clowning kind of brought it all together. And as I say, I've been coaching people for 20+ years. So, lo and behold, I became this Corporate Clown Coach who now is the spark of Laugh Think Play, which, in my mind, makes perfect sense. I appreciate that there aren't that many clowns out in the world that speak in these kind of podcasts. There are plenty of us clowns, but there you go.

Beth Stallwood 00:06:54 - 00:07:00
I love it. And I was like a drama school nerd so I'm like commedia dell'arte, yeah, I studied that.

Em Stroud 00:07:00 - 00:07:01
Excellent.

Beth Stallwood 00:07:01 - 00:07:14
I was so excited by all of this stuff. I love the fact there's, like, I had no idea, I did not know there were, four super clowns in the world and that you can go and study with them. That sounds fun.

Em Stroud 00:07:14 - 00:07:40
It is life changing and really hard. I just feel like I need to add that, because clowning, like anything, there is a craft to it. I mean, you also went to drama school. These things, it's like the craft of acting or becoming an actual artist, as my other half is, you know, there is craft and there is hard work in order to find the joy, in order to allow yourself to do those things.

Beth Stallwood 00:07:40 - 00:07:43
Yeah. It's not all sunshine and rainbows and unicorns.

Em Stroud 00:07:44 - 00:08:03
No, no, it's really not and actually, it's the hard work. It's why the drama masks are so powerful, because you have tragedy and comedy sitting next to each other. You know, you can't really find the light and the joy unless you've actually been able to explore and feel the darkness as well.

Beth Stallwood 00:08:03 - 00:08:34
Yeah. And there's so much to that, you know, that swaps over into the corporate world. When I talk about WorkJoy, people are thinking that, I mean, you're supposed to have it 100% of the time. And I'm like, let's get real. That's not how the world of work works. And I think there's something here about we have to experience all of it. But what about if we thought about joy? If we put some craft into bringing joy into our life, if we put some energy and effort in it, it can be hard work. But it's the kind of hard work that pays off.

Em Stroud 00:08:34 - 00:09:29
Yeah. And it's that thing about, I think we're all very conscious about we have to go to work. Like, we know we're going to go and work and earn our money and do what we do. But one of my really big challenges is that I don't believe people are conscious about play, and I don't believe people are conscious about cultivating space that then might create moments of joy. Now, because we can't be joyful all the time. It's exhausting. And joyful is such a high state, but you have to have these moments where you go, okay, how do I make sure that there is time where I'm going to play, where there's time where there's going to be light. And quite often, people aren't very good at prioritizing. They just kind of assume that it will happen at a weekend or, oh, we're going to go out some fun drinks now. And you're like, I don't really like drinking, so that's not really fun for me. So you've got to really craft it, I think.

Beth Stallwood 00:09:29 - 00:09:34
I don't know anyone in the world who truly likes organised fun.

Em Stroud 00:09:34 - 00:09:57
Oh. Although saying that I asked that question at a gig last week and one woman put their hand up, I went, who here likes forced fun? And one hand went up, and I had that response. I was like, oh, my word, you've put your hand up. And I went, why'd you like forced fun? She went, because I like watching how uncomfortable everybody else there was.

Beth Stallwood 00:09:57 - 00:09:58
A real dark side of liking the fun.

Em Stroud 00:09:59 - 00:10:05
It was her dark sense of humour, because it makes me laugh how uncomfortable everyone is when it's like, we're gonna go and play darts.

Beth Stallwood 00:10:07 - 00:10:57
I love that so much. I know there's that real dark humour and like human watching. Yeah, I actually really understand that now. I know why she liked it. I was thinking she actually enjoyed the process of having, being forced to go out and do stuff. No, no, love that. Talk to me more because I think this is so into everything you do about this idea of play. And the reason I'm asking you about this is I remember a period of my life where I forgot completely to play. I was working in a big job, working a lot of hours. I was studying for a masters, I was doing very serious grown up things and I reckon for three years I didn't do anything that I would put in the play category. Is that normal? Do people do this or am I a weirdo?

Em Stroud 00:10:57 - 00:14:01
No, you're not a weirdo at all. I think in my experience, working across every sector with people in very big jobs and entrepreneurs that have set up very successful startups and in various kind of stages of startups, I think the piece that we move away from as adults is indeed play because we're not encouraged to play. I think somehow 100+ years ago, when the rules of engagement of work, once we moved away from working in factories and we started to kind of shift into the industrial revolution and then now more in the tech revolution, I guess. Where was play featured in that? Oh, that's right, it wasn't, because somehow play was seen as childlike and play was seen as frivolous, and it's not going to get you to the end outcome, which now there are so many studies that play will not only, you know, makes you more productive, encourages creativity, collaboration, curiosity, it also helps us become present, which in the world of tech, I mean, we're doing this on tech, I'm not anti tech at all, but when we're playing, you know, you're just doing one thing. And the thing about play as adults is that I think we get scared because we get worried about getting stuff wrong. And one of the questions that I ask a lot of rooms of adults is you were all children and they were like, ha ha ha. Yes, of course we were. So all of us know how to play, but as adults, I think we get very scared. I might get it wrong, I might look stupid. I've got this big job, I've got to look serious. I've got to be successful. And I'm in no way suggesting you have to play all the time, but what I am suggesting is how do we create and cultivate moments of play or times of play, which then might enable us to see things from a different perspective? And the adults that I work with, and, you know, there was a client of mine, she got a really big job and she's like, Em, everything's going well. And on the mothering front, I'm doing great in terms of getting her to school, getting her dressed, all of that boundaries, and she went, I have no idea how to play with her, no idea how to play with her. And I literally was like, well, then let her be your teacher. Let her be your teacher because she knows how to play. And stop trying to put your adult brain in. You know, like, when you think about Lego, it's just a really simple example. When you're kids, you just build stuff and you're like, I built a rocket, I built a house. And as adults, those of us that play with Lego, quite often, it's like, I'm going to follow all the instructions and I'm going to go from A to B. Now, that's fine. And that's one way of play. But then quite often, people go, oh, no. But I can't mix the sets up, and it's like that moment of creativity that allowing ourselves to explore play, I think, is something that people like, you and I, well, we're the permission givers, right? We're like, it's okay to play. It's okay to get it wrong and just maybe, maybe find some time for it.

Beth Stallwood 00:14:01 - 00:14:04
Yeah. So I am a Lego player.

Em Stroud 00:14:04 - 00:14:06
Okay, congratulations.

Beth Stallwood 00:14:06 - 00:14:23
Thanks. I have built things recently. It's been my last year's thing. I've been building Lego things. I have done exactly that. I have followed the instructions to create something. And I think there's a little bit of me that's like, I just want to buy a big box of random Lego and see what I would create.

Em Stroud 00:14:23 - 00:14:25
Yeah. Yeah.

Beth Stallwood 00:14:25 - 00:14:40
I mean, you know, you talk about, you were looking online for ages about this kind of, I want to do this, or am I going to do it? I want to do this. I've been thinking about for ages, they do a course on facilitating with Lego, and I'm like, I need to go and do that.

Em Stroud 00:14:40 - 00:15:30
Yeah. And the thing is, one of the things that I've identified for my new book, and I keep having to tell people that I'm writing a new book because it encourages me to carry on writing it, is that as adults, we have 12different ways that we play. So I've built on this amazing psychologist who spent his whole life in the world of play, and he'd identified that there were 8. But in my practice and in my work, I've identified that there's 12 and it's completely fine if you get joy building a whole set. I'm not saying that's wrong. That is also a fine way of playing. But also there could be different ways of playing, you know? And I think when we know how play makes us feel, then suddenly you're like, of course, I'm going to do it more often. And it can be really simple. Just like dancing around your kitchen to a song and you just move about. That's play.

Beth Stallwood 00:15:32 - 00:16:00
And I think that's it, isn't it? It took me ages to realise what play was as a grown up and what does it look like for me? And it might be different for different people. So for me, a 3-minute dance party to a great tune will always do it. For me, doing something like Lego is a very kind of calm, quiet type of play for me. It's not my usual one. Singing in a choir is like 100% joyful play. Yep. But it's different for everybody, right?

Em Stroud 00:16:00 - 00:17:19
And that's the same as when we're kids. And this is where, you know, somehow our brilliant adult brains make us think, oh, I've got to play them this way now. You know, I'm a clown and an improviser, so there are certain kind of games that I like playing, but I appreciate, for quite a lot of people, that's not their idea of play. In fact, it's absolutely terrifying. But that's the same. If you go into a nursery, you walk into a nursery. All the kids there are playing in different ways. You know, some will be playing with sand, some will be playing with trains, some will be playing with their invisible friends, some will be playing with, you know, Crayola, whatever they're doing. But they'll be playing in different ways. But yet, as adults, we then get ourselves this sort of fixed identity. Oh, hi, I'm a lawyer, I'm an accountant, I'm a nurse, whatever it might be. And it's like, so I can't possibly do that because that doesn't mirror the identity that I have as an adult which is so often skewed with what we do as a job and actually what I, and I believe you are as well, let's challenge that you can do the most serious, most grown up work, but if you bring a bit of joy and a bit of play to it, you know what? It will be better. You will make more money and you'll feel better, you know, which has got to be what we're here to do, rather than just got to go to work and be a grown up.

Beth Stallwood 00:17:19 - 00:17:26
I'm thinking of completely denouncing the idea of growing up. I'm just saying that I think it's a massive trap.

Em Stroud 00:17:26 - 00:17:27
Yep.

Beth Stallwood 00:17:28 - 00:17:51
So re-examining and rethinking about all the stuff we did as kids that is brilliant and creative and interesting and, you know, I don't have kids, but I'm sure that you went through with your son, the experience of why? Why does that happen? Why does that work? When they're toddlers and it's like, imagine having that much curiosity that you would ask, why that many times and be that interested about anything.

Em Stroud 00:17:52 - 00:18:56
All of that stuff is great and it's useful. I mentor the CEO of the UK part of Clowns Without Borders. And Clowns Without Borders basically send brilliant people to refugee camps, the places where there is a lot of darkness. The clowns then arrive to bring joy because one of the things that's become more and more apparent is once you've got food and shelter on your medicine, actually, what's really important is to remember that there's also the light against the dark. And originally it was only for the kids at the camps, but what they've realised over, and they were formed in the Yugoslavian conflict in the 1990s and what they've realised, and they're working with the UN and people like that, is that, strangely enough, play connects all of us as human beings. So when the clowns arrive, suddenly it heals not only the people that are in some awful situation, probably not because of their own fault, but sometimes there are people called guards there and they're guarding these other people.

Em Stroud 00:18:56 - 00:20:51
And when the clowns show up, lo and behold, there's a connection. And suddenly we are human again. And it doesn't matter which side of the fence you're on anyway, with Clowns Without Borders, one of the things that they do is that they have their big grown up board with making sure that obviously everything's working and efficient and, you know, and making sure it's all ticking, every box that needs to. They also have a kids board I believe. I think they're from 8 to 13 or maybe even 7 to 13. And in essence, where they have to go. And they go, well, this is what we've planned. And then they go and tell the kids, and the kids quite often go, no, that doesn't make any sense, and see things from a different perspective. And they play with the different ideas. And honestly, the input that those young people have and the kids have is completely different and has actually shaped a lot of the success of Clowns Without Borders. And for me, again, it's this thing about how do we mix up very boring meetings that we have. Let's have our regular sales catch up. When do you challenge how you do that? Why are you not bringing more play into it? And these are the things that I'm with you. It's like we are at a place where we are adulting because we have responsibilities, whether that's a house or to feed ourselves, etc, because we are over the age of 18. However, it doesn't mean that we have to be that conventional grown up, because within that, there's such a fixed way that you have to be. And for me, it's like, actually, as a 45 year old woman, I am far more playful now than I was as a kid. And I think I've realised in the last few weeks, like, actually, I've kind of done my life backwards, which is probably why play is so important to me. Didn't play that much as a kid, for various reasons. And actually, I've realised how much better it makes you feel when you do it.

Beth Stallwood 00:20:51 - 00:22:10
And a lot of people, when I talk about work joy, they're like, oh, but joy is so frivolous, etc. You talk about this idea that play is frivolous. It's actually, if I'm right, and I've done a bit of research on this, so I think I am, it is a completely normal human thing to play, like, in every culture in the world. There is play in built into our thing. But because we've created these constructs called organisations and jobs and the time you have to be at work and the seriousness of it all, we've built it out of our organisations rather than building it in. And I think I'm on a mission to build more joy back in. You're on a mission to build play into these things, and how can we make some of those things happen? And I'd love to know, have you got some examples, as you said, the example, you know, we're in our weekly meeting and everyone's going around going, here's my update of all the things I've done last week and what I haven't got to and what's on my to do list and everyone else is if it's online doing their emails or playing with a dog or putting a load of washing on going, when will this be over? Give us some ideas. What are some of the things that we can actually do in our workplaces to bring some play into it in a very unforced fun way?

Em Stroud 00:22:10 - 00:22:50
Yeah anti anti anti anti anti, forced fun for me. Some really simple things that you can do, and again, depending on how brave you feel as an individual, will dictate what you want to bring into your organisation and also your seniority as well. But I do think all of us can bring a lightness of touch even if they don't want to bring all the way to play so simple things out of offices that you get sent via email. The most boring thing known to mankind. The amount of out of offices that I get when it's like I am out of the office or I will not be checking my emails or please contact Barbara in the accounts department too, because I'm not checking my emails. It's like they're boring and you get them and it takes your time.

Em Stroud 00:22:50 - 00:23:31
How about if you put your out of office going, I'm out the office, here's a little video that made me laugh recently. I'm back on the blah blah blah day. So simple. People then remember you for the right reasons. Now, I'm assuming that everybody that's listening to you would actually like to be remembered for the right reasons in terms of that they're a good soul. So out of office is such a simple thing that you can instantly just share little moments of joy. This is why we like cat videos, memes, whatever it might be. If you're in a meeting and you're in charge of a meeting, actually starting this works, whether it's hybrid, whether it's online, or whether you're in person, getting one person at the start of the meeting just to share a little video on YouTube, something's made them laugh.

Em Stroud 00:23:32 - 00:26:14
So simple and it doesn't mean that it's going to necessarily make everybody laugh. There's no pressure on it. It's literally just share a 3-minute video. It's made you laugh. You all come in, you watch it, you're all human, and then you're like did you find that funny? Oh, my word, I didn't find that funny. It changes the energy and the state of a meeting. Quite often with organisations, meeting rooms are the most boring places known to mankind. You know what I mean? You go in and somebody went, oh, I've got to think about the ergonomics of the chair. Brilliant. Really important that people sit up upright. I'm not suggesting, don't, but maybe for some of your meetings, get rid of the table and the chairs, literally push them to the side. Do this crazy idea, do it all standing up, you know, and by the very essence of this, if you're standing up, meetings are shorter because people are like, I need to sit down now. If you're standing up, there's more energy. And also if you get rid of the table, it changes the construct. Think about the theatre world. You know, you have a rehearsal space that is empty and then you create your set. In the business world, we already have our set straight away. Ah, this is how we sit. Here's our person who's our boss. They sit at the front of the table, etc etc. So you can start to become playful by actually challenging how things operate in your place of work. And there are some really good offices that are doing stuff. But again, what happens is quite often some interior designer goes, I know, I'll put a table football table that no one ever plays, but it's their tokenistic. This is going to make an organisation more playful. If we put some stuff there, it's not going to happen unless somebody drives it and goes, shall we? Maybe for those of you in an office that like table football, let's have a table football tournament once every month, no pressure. The other thing that I find is that when people go, this is how I like to play, and it starts becoming more of a conversation and you and I can facilitate those kind of conversations. Actually, what you can do is like, well, I'm really into collecting, which is one of the way people like to play. So you get everybody that likes collecting stuff and then you go on like a little collection, like adventure and you maybe take a couple of hours and you go, right, let's go and collect cool stuff for the library. I don't know, you just use that as an example, right? And the other thing that you can do is if you are feeling brave and if you are a senior business leader, actually what you can do is you can encourage different ways of play. So, for example, you can play games and when you are terrified, because you're worried that people are going to go, oh, no, I'm going to look really silly, or I'm going to look really stupid. Then you just say, well, I listen to Beth's podcast, and so I'm going to blame Beth if it doesn't work.

Beth Stallwood 00:26:15 - 00:26:16
I'm happy to be the blame person.

Em Stroud 00:26:16 - 00:28:01
Fine. And so am I. And I remember there was a guy, he was an MDof a multi million pound firm. I say that merely because I want you to get an idea of the level of success that he was at, engineer by trade, and he had to go to the Board, and he had a Board meeting. And now the irony of Board meetings is, can you hear what they're called? Bored. People are quite often bored at Board meetings because they go on for 4 hours with no break. With people going, I'm going to give you the financial update. I hope you're really excited by this. So I suggested to Martin at the start, why don't you play a game? And there's a game that I play, which is called invisible balls. And you basically throw around invisible balls and you catch them. Right. It's really simple. And he just went, but these are the board members. And I was like, and they're all human. And actually, if you engage with them and they play a game, you know what? It might just change how that board meeting goes. And he did it, and I said, use me as your reason. And he said, well, you know that you pay for me to go and be part of this mastermind group. I heard this speaker Em, and blah, blah, blah, and she suggested that we did this. Obviously, if you hate it, we'll never do this ever again, but I just think we should try it. And he got all of these people up, throwing invisible balls around the room. The energy within the room, he said, completely changed the connection between all the people. Completely changed. They laughed and they engaged with each other as people because they played, in essence, a four minute game. He said it was the shortest, the most productive, and the most successful meeting they've ever had. And so there, in a long winded answer, is quite a few ideas about how people can maybe play.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:01 - 00:28:20
Okay, I've been scribbling down as fast as my pen will go to note some of these things down, because I think they're all amazing. Like, sharing a video of something is so easy, takes very little effort, easy to do meeting rooms. You're right. So many of them have been stripped of all personality.

Em Stroud 00:28:20 - 00:28:21
Mm hmm.

Beth Stallwood 00:28:22 - 00:28:42
And I'm a big believer in, like, colour and getting your post it notes out and having your stuff that can help you be more creative. Getting stuff up on a wall. Get rid of a table. There's something like, it's the one that gets me is when everyone sat around the table, they've all got their laptops in front of them, so no one can actually see anyone's faces. But you're all in a meeting room in real life.

Em Stroud 00:28:42 - 00:29:29
And also, how did that become okay? I've literally walked into places, and I'm like, you're all on your laptops, and you're all basically waiting for your turn to speak. This is the biggest expense. You've got your senior leadership team all sitting here with their laptops. Ditch them. Literally, it's one of my, I'll get off my soapbox, literally say, if you're going to bring your laptop in here, leave. And they go. And I'm like, because you're not present, you're not going to be playful, you're not engaging with each other. Actually put them away. Be brave. Challenge and challenge. People go, why are we all sitting here with our laptops up? And if there's one person that goes, but I want to take notes. Cool. But there is enough things that you can just record stuff on that can then get sent to all those people. So I don't even think that's a reason anymore.

Beth Stallwood 00:29:29 - 00:29:43
Yeah. And one of the things I often do when I'm in a room with people is I take toys with me. Yeah, some people love them, and some people are like, why have you bought these? But there are some people who sit there and they're like, people I go to often are like, have you bought your toys with you today?

Em Stroud 00:29:43 - 00:30:12
But the people that go, why have you bought this. Is because they're scared. It's because they're scared, and they're the type of soul. And there's a woman who I met, gosh, two, three years ago, and she started like that, and then she just went, it's because I don't actually know how to play. I stopped playing when I was 8, and I don't know what to do. So whenever I get that kind of negative edit, I kind of meet them with kindness and go, wow, this is really triggering for you. And it's really hard.

Beth Stallwood 00:30:13 - 00:30:16
Yeah. And that's okay because that's where you are.

Em Stroud 00:30:16 - 00:30:18
Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

Beth Stallwood 00:30:18 - 00:30:28
And I had no idea, and I'm very excited about this one. I had no idea that collecting stuff was a type of play.

Em Stroud 00:30:30 - 00:31:14
So collectors by their very essence, if you think about it, of course, it's playful. You're fully present, right? So I collect trainers and I collect books and I collect vinyl. Those would be my 3 ways that I play in terms of collection. And when I'm in a vinyl shop, I'm in a record store, do you think I'm thinking about anything else? No. I am playing through those different things. Sometimes I pick them up and go, oh, my word, this is this old, you know, and whatever you collect, it doesn't matter what it is, there's always play around it. And for me, play is about when you are so present and in flow and the rest of the world falls apart. So, of course, collecting has to be one of the ways that we play.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:14 - 00:31:47
You blow my mind in exciting ways because I collect books. If people could see behind me there's a lot of books, and I've got a thing for flamingos. Because they're weird and, yeah, I think, you know, I quite like them. But I have always, and I'm going to have to apologise to him now, taking the absolute chronic piss out of my husband for the things that he collects, because he had like an entire DVD collection that he then replaced with an entire Blu ray collection. Now it's like the online collection of the same thing. And I have been mean to him about that, but that's part of his play.

Em Stroud 00:31:47 - 00:31:49
It's part of his play. It's part of his play.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:49 - 00:31:54
So I've got some amends to make in that particular zone.

Em Stroud 00:31:54 - 00:31:56
You just thought I was just chatting to Em and it's like, oh, no, hang on a second, I've gotta go.

Beth Stallwood 00:31:57 - 00:32:35
I've got to go and apologise to my husband. Didn't think we were going there today, but I love that, the collecting stuff. I also collect stationery and notebooks. So, you know, I can say that that's just part of how I play now. Yeah, I love it, love it, love it, love it. And I am loving imagining this board to be a bit stuffy and kind of like, oh, we need to get on with the very serious papers and work through all of our risk registers and listen to the financial updates, etc, suddenly playing with invisible walls. I mean, I can imagine it changing instantly.

Em Stroud 00:32:35 - 00:34:10
And this was the key thing, right. I think quite often in cultures, in terms of businesses, if someone like you and I walk in, it's like, oh, yeah, but that's what they're meant to do, because that's why they're here. And for me, when it becomes really fascinating is when somebody is brave enough and vulnerable enough to go, this is out of my zone of comfort, but I know that it will benefit me because I've done it with someone like you and me. And when people do that, and then when people feel the difference, and that's the key thing. Right. You and I could wax lyrical about why, you know, work joy is so important, why play is so important, but every person has to feel it for themselves. And when you really feel it for yourself, then you can't help but go, I want a bit more because it feels better. And when things feel better, you're far more likely to become habitual. And then that's when cultural change happens. And I remember with one particular team, they were so hesitant, they were so fearful about playing like a lot of adults are. And then gradually what they've all done is they all now have, what they call it is like their play champion for a week. So that person is in charge of making sure that there's little moments of play in their week. And because they all play in different ways, that means that everybody gets their own preference. And also what's exciting is that they all connect because they're playing more.

Beth Stallwood 00:34:10 - 00:34:21
Yeah. And you probably find new connections in people who like to play in the same way as you do that you didn't know or you didn't have a connection with them beforehand. And suddenly they're like, oh, Beth, I love flamingos too.

Em Stroud 00:34:21 - 00:35:35
Completely and this is what's so interesting. I was working with an accountancy firm, not perhaps the most naturally playful of all professions that you would assume. And I was going through the 12 ways that we play and one of the ways is thrill seekers. Now, the thing about thrill seekers is quite often you would never know they're a thrill seeker. This is for their own gratification. They're the kind of people that you just, they're not necessarily, some are, but not all of them. You know, I'd say probably about 60% generally just go off and do it. And there I was, and I said, anybody here a thrill seeker? I remember this man's hand went up. This is quite a small accountancy firm. There's like 35, 40 of them, right? And literally the whole place went, oh. I think his name was John. John had worked there for like 4 or 5 years and he just went, yeah, yeah like last week I went mountain biking, you know, down a really intense hill, you know, towards the end, and quite often go parachute jumping. No one knew about this. And literally his voice was like that and he just went, yeah, because I like how it makes me feel. And they were like, what? Because he's an introvert and he's an accountant. And literally all of his team had no idea he did it.

Beth Stallwood 00:35:37 - 00:35:42
And I feel like on this one, there's another myth to bust here is that playing is for extroverts.

Em Stroud 00:35:43 - 00:36:30
Oh, yeah. That's a complete myth. There are certain ways that we play extroversion, and introversion is an entirely different part of who we are as human beings. And every extrovert can have moments of introversion, and every introvert can have moment of extroversion. Right? And some of us end up really pushing that a lot. And play, literally, is for every single human. Doesn't matter how you're wired, it doesn't matter whether you're extroverted. Extrovert, extrovert, introvert, introvert. Whatever combination you perceive play is for all of us. Go back to the nursery thing. It doesn't matter. When you were 3, no one cared whether you were an introvert or an extrovert. You just played, because that's how you learned that. That's how you explored the world.

Beth Stallwood 00:36:31 - 00:36:56
Yeah. And I think as well, if you think about where we are now in the culture, and, like, all of the things that are needed in business are curiosity, creativity, innovation. We need to learn new and different ways of doing stuff because the old ways don't work anymore. Yet we forget that between the ages of, like, 0 and 15, the way we learn most of our stuff is by playing.

Em Stroud 00:36:56 - 00:37:30
Yep it's fascinating to me. And, you know, you look at the Scandinavian countries and they don't even go to school until they're over the age of 8, you know, my son's 11 and I witness how gradually play and play becomes less and less important in schooling, you know, and in the future, you know, we want laughing play to actually really work with education and government. Actually what we do is we tell our young people, up until the age of about 10 play is really important. After that, we'll stop because you've got to get on with work and make sure you pass your exams.

Beth Stallwood 00:37:30 - 00:37:38
Yeah. Make sure you fit into this nice neat box, please and tick these checklist things off.

Em Stroud 00:37:38 - 00:38:24
And it's not that exams and academic achievements and having success is not important. What I'm gently, and I think you hold the same thing is how we do it could have a different look and feel, which reminds us, because it's only us in the West, right? It's, um, well, probably in the more capitalist side of the world, we don't prioritize this stuff. Whereas if you go to various parts of Africa, if you go to various parts of Thailand and places like that, culturally, play is at the beating heart of what they do, they're looking for food, they do everything else, and then they'll also play as a group. Unsurprisingly, they get on better. You know, let's be honest, it's not as if the West is doing a great job right now of going, hey, we're doing great.

Beth Stallwood 00:38:24 - 00:39:07
We're rocking everything. If we just continue in this way, everything will be fine. No, it will not. Yeah, I totally agree. And I'm not saying that things like business success aren't important. I'm saying that we've got a different way of getting there. There's different ways of us thinking. I think we can both, like, agree on that. How we do stuff, whether that's how we build it into our organisational culture. Whether it's as individuals, what do we bring. If it’s as leaders doing the brave stuff about doing a, let's play with some invisible balls as we work through this, or it’s a hang on a minute, let's take all the chairs away and let's do this meeting in 20 minutes. Everyone will be more grateful for shorter meetings. There is not a single human in the world that goes, do you know what I really want is an extra hour on this meeting.

Em Stroud 00:39:07 - 00:39:21
And this is the thing, right? It doesn't matter where we're at, in our age, in our career, in our life, we all can go every day. I'm going to let myself have five minutes where I play.

Beth Stallwood 00:39:22 - 00:40:00
Yeah. And I think that's an interesting thing, too, isn't it, that I talk about this a lot with work joy? It doesn't actually take loads of time. It doesn't take loads of effort. It just takes thinking about a little thing and doing something and whether you, even if you only play outside of work, but you feel better, you'll be better at work. If you can play inside work, that's even better. It encourages other people to do it. And I think there is a big job here, isn't there, for leaders to step out of that? We all have to be serious at work zone and get into a, how do we help people be better at work? And one of those ways is going to be thinking about how do we play?

Em Stroud 00:40:00 - 00:40:50
If I think about the leaders that I've helped tell their stories and how do they engage, strangely enough, the people that we really remember are those that bring in the elements of light. I'm not suggesting everyone has become funny or extrovert, but the people that we connect with are deeply human, and they smile and they engage and they share their truth. And those that really, really are deeply memorable allow these moments of light to come through, are playful in how they tell their stories in a way that is truthful to them. And that, for me, I think when you think about leaders creating culture, when you really witness people just being themselves and engaging and telling stories and you see that it lights them up. It's contagious.

Beth Stallwood 00:40:51 - 00:41:14
Yeah, totally is. Love it. I think we could probably talk for another few hours about this, but I'm not sure everybody would. I mean, maybe we will after today. I do think that we probably need to get into our quick fire round. So, first question for you. We know you're writing your next book, but what book are you currently reading?

Em Stroud 00:41:15 - 00:41:26
Oh, good question. I'm currently listening to the book that is called, she desperately looks at Audible. It is called please hold on caller. Who's Got Your Back?

Beth Stallwood 00:41:37 - 00:41:37
Oh.

Em Stroud 00:41:38 - 00:43:17
And I think it's actually quite an old book. I think it was written early 2000s by a guy called Keith Thorrazzi. And in essence, it's this beautiful thing about exactly that, who's got your back. So if you're an entrepreneur or if you're someone that's very good at holding other people, how do you make sure that you get held as well? And the heart of it is this whole idea about making sure that you have other people that you commit to, that you support and they support you. Like an accountability buddy, but with a little bit more depth. And I'm about halfway through that and it's really percolating. So there's that, which is a slightly more worky thing. I generally have about 4 or 5 books, and one that genuinely will stay with me for a while I finished it in early January, was the Britney Spears autobiography. Oh, my word. Well, I listened to it, and it's got Michelle, the amazing actress, whose name has also escaped me. And it is a challenging and hard listen. But my word, it's an important one if you care about women. To hear her story and hear her life and what has happened genuinely will stay with me for a long time. I think it's an important thing to go, wow. There are still systems, you look at the US, that somebody can be controlled in a way that is not good. So it's very powerful, it's a hard, listen. I'm not saying it's an enjoyable and fun one, but it will stay with me for quite a long time.

Beth Stallwood 00:43:18 - 00:43:42
I love those two recommendations. We will pop them into the show notes so that people can go through and look at those too. I'm gonna get both of those. I would never have thought that Britney Spears autobiography would be worth a read, but now I'm totally on it. Right. Second question for you, for you personally, what's always going to bring you a little bit of work joy?

Em Stroud 00:43:44 - 00:44:25
I think when I stand up on stage and I'm delivering a talk, a workshop or my show, and I do quite a lot of shows, you know, like my current show is doing the after dinner speaker kind of circuit, that will always bring me joy because when I see and feel the impact of my words, my energy and my heart on audiences, that genuinely brings me joy because I can see my work landing with them. So, yeah. And it's one of my favourite places to be. So that.

Beth Stallwood 00:44:25 - 00:44:35
Love that. Question three is what's one bit of advice that somebody has given you in your life that you always find yourself coming back to?

Em Stroud 00:44:39 - 00:46:03
I remember when I went to drama school and one of the principals there, he actually retired and he came back just to do our third year play. His name was John Gardner and he was one of the sort of foremost experts in Shakespeare in the sort of early 2000s and, you know, previously and stuff. And John said to me when we sat down about, career path and what we're gonna do. He went, you are going to succeed in the business side and the show side. So he foresaw my path far more than I did. And he went, but just always remember that, yes, you can make people laugh, but actually there's deep weight in what you have to say as well, so don't always go into laughter. And it's always stayed with me and it's probably been only in the last 10 years of my working life that I've really let go of, I always have to be the funny one and actually I've moved more into, I can have weight and I can make people laugh. So John's advice of, trust both sides of you, has always been somewhere in my head.

Beth Stallwood 00:46:03 - 00:46:05
That's amazing.

Em Stroud 00:46:05 - 00:46:07
He was amazing.

Beth Stallwood 00:46:08 - 00:46:14
Wow. What a thing to say and what a thing to kind of think about what you've done and how you've kind of lived.

Em Stroud 00:46:14 - 00:46:15
I know, right?

Beth Stallwood 00:46:16 - 00:46:18
Did he have a crystal ball?

Em Stroud 00:46:20 - 00:47:08
I think because I was a bit older when I went to drama school than everybody else, so I was in my mid 20s when I went. And I think even by then I'd already had my first theatre company and we'd done a couple of shows, and then I'd also been a salesperson as well. So I think I was clear that both sides of me were important to me. And I think he just, he saw something in me in terms of that, I find comedy fairly easy. You know, it's a gift that I have, and I think he was just very good at moving you away from what might seem easy to actually make you whole. And he did that with lots of, you know, he did that with all of us. You know, he just, he was pretty prophetic.

Beth Stallwood 00:47:08 - 00:47:32
Oh, proper chills on that one. Love it. Right. I have to get back to the serious questions of my process. Question four is you've given loads of great advice already, but what is one thing that's really simple, that people could go and do whatever position they're in, whatever type of organisation they work in, etc, today or tomorrow, etc, that you think would help them in their working lives.

Em Stroud 00:47:34 - 00:48:18
Smile more. Smile and take a breath before you walk into an interaction, before you click join. If you take a breath and you smile, you know, whatever's gone before, whatever's going to come, you have no control over. Whether it's the best meeting, the worst meeting, whether it's boring, interesting, engaging, whether you're looking forward to it, whether you're absolutely bricking it. But what we can be in charge of is taking that moment just to take a breath. And then when you walk in, you either smile, you know, you smile because that's the only moment of life that you have. That's what you're doing at that moment. And if you really can't smile because you're like, I'm really not happy, then maybe that tells you something that needs to change.

Beth Stallwood 00:48:18 - 00:49:00
Yeah. It's telling you something if you can't put a smile on it. I had a proper vision while you're talking about that of like, being in the wings of a stage in the moment before you go on stage and taking the big deep breath and then walking on like you kind of walk in with the whatever attitude, etc you've chosen for your character. It's the same thing, isn't it? It's like, choose to take the moment. And also, I think, I'm not a neuroscientist, but the neuroscience of smiling actually tells your brain that everything's okay. So, like, the physical act of smiling convinces your brain that things are better. Like, why not just try it? Great one. So final question from me is where can people find out more about you and your work and what you do and get in contact with you?

Em Stroud 00:49:01 - 00:49:36
The easiest thing for me is just look up emstroud.com and that's em. So not m like the spy. So emstroud.com is everything to do with me. Laughthinkplay.com the new website will be out soon sharing what we're going to be doing, everything else like that, which is cool, exciting stuff. And I am very google-able. And I guess if this has sparked your interest, then just go on audible and or Amazon or anywhere else and get my book Lessons from a Clown. But yeah, if you google me, you'll find me. You know, I'm the only person to have done a TEDx talk dressed as a banana, so I'm pretty google-able.

Beth Stallwood 00:49:37 - 00:49:41
Why was that not in your introduction? That you’re the only person to have done a TED talk dressed as a banana?

Em Stroud 00:49:42 - 00:49:54
Yeah, true. I did that. But I did that in 2017, so that was all about, be more banana. So to bring more fun and joy into your life. And then since then, I've done another TED talk of Laugh Think Play more. So yeah, you'll find me.

Beth Stallwood 00:49:54 - 00:50:33
Love it, love it, love it. It's been so wonderful to talk to you. I am nearly all the way through the book. There are so many things that I have really enjoyed about it. My favourite one, I was saying it just before we came on here, was this idea of play connects us to joy, and play allows us to be free. Play is a state of mind that can take you away from the current state of the world. And I was like, oh, it really got me that particular introduction, obviously, because we're all connected to joy. Thank you so much for coming on the podcast. I can't wait to explore more about what you're doing in the world and we will put all of those links in into the show notes as well, so that people can connect on through. Thank you so much.

Em Stroud 00:50:33 - 00:50:34
Thank you for having me.

Beth Stallwood 00:50:38 - 00:52:55
A huge thank you to Em Stroud for joining me today. I really enjoyed that conversation and I've realised that I've written so quickly all of the things that I wanted to note down and now have no ability to read any of my notes. But some fantastic things that I was thinking about here was around how we forget to play, how we forget as adults that that's an important part of what we do. I remember many years ago discovering Brene Brown for the first time and her talking about how she had to put her research away and go to therapy because one of the things that she discovered in her work was around the importance of play for a full life and living joyfully. And I think this is one of those things we often don't associate with work. So in my world, we don't always associate joy with work. We think it has to be hard and difficult, etc. And we don't often associate play with work either. And I would love us to change that message. I would love us to think the place, the environment, the people we're spending a third of our lives with that we can have some fun. And that fun can be really functional. It can help us to work better. It can help us to be more creative. If we think about it, play doesn't have to look one way. We can find the type of play that really works for us as individuals and we can build that into how we do our work and how as individuals and teams that can make a massive, massive difference. So up the play, find ways of playing, small ways of doing it every day. And I'd love to know from you what difference you have found that has made in your life when you've brought some play back into it. Thank you so much for listening to this episode. As usual, I would love you to think about one thing that you're going to do or do differently or bring into your life or think about that might help you get a little bit more joy in your working life. So just think about from this episode, what will you take away? Remember, you can follow us on socials. We're @createworkjoy and I'd love to hear from you. So if you've got any messages, do email me hello@createworkjoy.com and thanks for listening.